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Claiming A Royal Title

Claiming A Royal Title

Posted: 29 Jun 2005 9:07AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Heim, Jensen, Brektal, Kelley, Harris, Winslow, Neville, DeBeaufort, John of Gaunt
If a family has a reason or grounds to claim an English title, what are some sources of information that might tell about proceedures, etiqutte, and laws involved? And, at what point does a hereditary title "die" - or does it? Does anyone know the current ruling monarch's position on "old crown" titles? I hear the French tend to honor all titles, past or present, but they are the most permissive.

Re: Claiming A Royal Title

Hunter Johnston (View posts)
Posted: 30 Jun 2005 2:44PM GMT
Classification: Query
I don't know about English titles, but in the case of Scotland you would need lawyers (soliciter and barrister) to prove your case in a court of law.
For example: When the 3rd Marquise of Annandale died childless (and insane) and had no living brothers, the descendants of his half sister spent many years in court trying to prove thier right to the titles. It was a costly procedure. They eventually won, and today the present Earl of Annandale and Hartfell is from that line. The case is well documented and some of the recordfs can be read on the Johnston(e) Family in America web site.

Re: Claiming A Royal Title

Roberta Heim (View posts)
Posted: 1 Jul 2005 5:44PM GMT
Classification: Query
Thank you for the reply very much. My family recently discovered, quite by accident, that we are Edward III descendants and I am the 18th great-granddaughter, myself. I understand there are many many Edward III descendants - maybe around 120,000 worldwide I was told. What I don't understand, is how a family forgets about its origins or why the information is suppressed after a certain point and the next generations are not told anything about it at all by their elders. I suppose there are reasons, but I have not heard of any specifically yet. I am still almost completely in the dark about the situation - I don''t even know who inherited what and who owns it now, or if any lands have been taken by the state for sake of lack of interest of the descendants. It is not that our own family is not doing well now, but I heard there is a German fellow who researches for families about whether they may take their lands back from the government; He was on the tv show 20/20 or 60 Minutes once, and I think it would be sad if people just let it all go out of false modesty or disinterest, being distracted or more interested in their modern careers and concerns. I am puzzled by my extended relatives' complete disinterest right now. They do no checking at all, and they don't talk about it when they are together.

Re: Claiming A Royal Title

Posted: 1 Jul 2005 7:13PM GMT
Classification: Query
What do you mean by "old crown titles"? Emperor of India and King of France, perchance? Those titles were renounced, India when it became a republic and for France when Great Britain was willing to recognize the French Republic. Likewise with other titles, some which are still used (the Queen is called the Duchess of Normandy on one of the Channel Islands).
Cetainly hereditry titles "die" or brcome extinct; it happens often, whenever an hereditary peer dies and there is no heir or possibility of an heir (if one of his female relations later has a son, that son might be entitled to the title, depending upon the letters patent. If so, the title is held in *abeyance*) . Usually the letters patent that creates a title limit the succesion to the male line, and sometimes there are *unusual* rules of succession (a younger child might be preferred to an older one), and there might (or might not) be provision for a female succession. If there are no heirs, the title dies, and if its a "recent" creation it would be easy to prove (example, there is, at present, no heir to the Dukedom of York). In other cases you need to really look at the genealogy. Debretts, and Burke's, usually does a good job of keeping track of who's in line for titles.<vbg> BTW, if the monarch inherits a title, regardless of how many others might be in line of succession to that title, that creation of the title ends and that peerage is vacant. Also, if the peer is convicted of high treason, the title lapses. A person who might have inherited that title can petition for its restoration, which might be granted. There is, for instance, no duke of Albany (the 2nd duke, Queen Victoria's grandson, fought on Germany's side in WW1, deprived of title 1919). His grandson would have been the 4th duke.

Re: Claiming A Royal Title

Roberta Heim (View posts)
Posted: 1 Jul 2005 9:33PM GMT
Classification: Query
Thankyou Mr. Wolfram. By "old crown" I meant that Edward III of England's line is not on the throne today. Also - can you tell me if petitioning for a resurrection of a title is a legal matter done only through lawyers?

Re: Claiming A Royal Title

Roberta Heim (View posts)
Posted: 1 Jul 2005 9:49PM GMT
Classification: Query
Question #2 regarding Mr. Wolfram's post: He said "BTW, if the monarch inherits a title, regardless of how many others might be in line of succession to that title, that creation of the title ends and that peerage is vacant." Does saying "vacant peerage" mean once the monarch inherits, the title is dead to the former line? Is there any acknowledgement anywhere given between titles a monarch gained through war/conquest (or otherwise being designated them besides by inheritance) ...and toward former hereditary holders of same title(s)?
I believe the Queen of England now holds the title Duke of Lancaster, which my great-great-" John of Gaunt held, yet she is not a descendant of him. She is a Hanoverian.

Re: Claiming A Royal Title

Posted: 1 Jul 2005 10:48PM GMT
Classification: Query
When the king inherits a peerage, or when the Earl of Whatever becomes king, the title *merges* with the Crown and ceases to exist, as the Crown is the "font of all honours." Consider: Prince Charles will probably be the next king of England. He will also, after his father's death, become the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh---and there are now four men in line after him in line to succede to that creation of the title. None of them probably will succed to that creation, as Charles will probably inherit both crown and dukedom. When that happens, however, Charles has agreed to create Prince Edward (now last in line to this creation of the dukedom) Duke of Edinburgh.
Yes, Elizabeth II is the duke of Lancaster, but why do you say she doesn't descend from John of Gaunt??? She does descend from him, several times. Sophia of Hanover was the granddaughter of James I, who was the great-great-grandson (twice over) of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York. Henry's mother was a great-granddaughter of Katheryn Swynford, John of Gaunt's mistress & 3rd wife. And that's only the best known of her descents from John of Gaunt. And the Queen has at least three descents from Sophia that I can name offhand.

Re: Claiming A Royal Title

Roberta Heim (View posts)
Posted: 1 Jul 2005 11:41PM GMT
Classification: Query
Wow. I see I am in need of some more reading resources. Can you or anyone else recommend any? Thankyou again. Roberta

Re: Claiming A Royal Title

Posted: 2 Jul 2005 2:10AM GMT
Classification: Query
Correction: Queen Elizabeth II has at least six descents from Sophia of Hanover. Christian IX of Denmark, and his wife Queen Luise, were each twice over the great-great-grandchildren of George II of England. (I didn't know about Queen Luise's ancestry, and thought Christian had only one descent<g>). Christian and Luise were the parents of Queen Alexandra, wife of Edward VII, and also of George I of the Helles (Prince Philip's paternal grandfather). Of course The Queen also descends twice from George III, thru Edward of Kent (Victoria's father) and thru Adolphus Frederick, duke of Cambridge (maternal grandfather of Queen Mary of Teck). And Elizabeth of York, wife of Henry VII, was the great-great-granddaughter of John of Gaunt and Katheryn Swynford since her paternal grandmother Cecily Neville, wife of Richard Duke of York, was their granddaughter. And the late Queen Mother Elizabeth was a descendant of Henry VII's youngest daughter, Mary, Queen of France and Duchess of Suffolk.

Re: Claiming A Royal Title

Roberta Heim (View posts)
Posted: 2 Jul 2005 3:39AM GMT
Classification: Query
Oh! I see something now; You have to keep hanging around England and making sure you are available to gain more numbers of royal "descents" through marriage and then helping arrange similar for same for the new generation! My ancestors must have gotten tired of it; I am the 18th Great-granddaughter of King Edward III through John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford and then on down through some ship Mayflower people. Also am great-great-grand-d. through Prince Thomas, brother of John of Gaunt. But that's it! Only two descents, From the same King of England, and they met on the Mayflower enterprise, after getting away from the whole thing. Must have been what they wanted. I suppose there are pros and cons to everything.
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