Notation on marriage record
Hello all,
I am looking for some advice in terms of understanding the notation "nemes" on a marriage record for my patrilineal ancestor. Specifically I would like to have an estimate of roughly how far back one would have to look in order to determine the origin of a grant/patent of nobility. In other words, how long were these titles or extractions noted?
With sincere thanks, Brian Szente
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Re: Notation on marriage record
Hi Brian, 'Nemes' literally means 'noble'. As for your family's patents of nobility, they could have taken place at any time in Hungary's history up until 1956 when it was abolished. The older notable noble Hungarian families can be traced back to the 1300's and further back. But my families and the major of the ones I have seen, were granted their nobility in the 1600's. Try tracing back as far as you possibly can in the church parish records, and then take a look at the nobility records at the county (megye) level. The LDS should have nobility records on microfilm for just about every county/megye in Hungary. That's how I found my nobility records. Good luck! Nick M. Gombash nickmgombash@yahoo.com
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Re: Notation on marriage record
Dear Brian, Your Szente name does appear in the nobility literature. The name can also be spelled Szenthe, Zente, Zenthey, and Szenthey and is found over the centuries in a variety of megyes. They may or may not all be related. One family traces back as early as the 1400s. The name probably stems from the village of Szente in Nógrád megye. There is a coat of arms illustrated for the family in Nógrád If you will send me your email address (to kozlay@comcast.net), and if you can be patient, I will send you the information from the Hungarian nobility literature. Unfortunately there is almost nothing there in the way of genealogical tables. Janet
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Re: Notation on marriage record
Dear Janet,
Thank you very much for your reply to my query. Any information that you can provide would be greatly appreciated. I've only traced this branch of my family as far back as 1848, so I've got some work to do in order to connect the dots. It's probably time I took that long overdue trip to the local LDS Family History Center!
Anyway, my e-mail address is soosszente at comcast dot net. I look forward to hearing from you!
Thanks again! Brian
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Re: Notation on marriage record
Nick, I beg your pardon, but the privilegies of the noblemen was abolished by the Hungarian parliament at 1848 (sic!!!) and the using of the noble grades were stopped at 1945 by the first really democratic parliament. Your Lajos
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Re: Notation on marriage record
My bad, Lajos. Thank you for the correction.
Nick
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Re: Notation on marriage record
Lajos & Nick,
My thanks to everyone for these informative responses to my initial query. I've been frustrated by the fact that I've had to take a hiatus from my genealogical research for the past few years and have been wondering about how to initiate parallel lines of inquiry.
The intent of my original post was to determine if there was any sort of "statute of limitations" on how long members of a family might be noted as "nemes" on church records. If there was any indication of how long this might continue, then I might get a better estimate of how much farther back I would need to dig.
The specific case is that my 2x great grandfather, born in 1848, was married in Székesfehérvár in 1873. The church record of the marriage indicates him as nemes Szente János. However, subsequent to this, for the births of any of his children the notation is no longer made. Granted, his son (my great grandfather) was born in Obuda in 1880, so I'm sure that the family's circumstances had changed by that time.
The upshot of this all is that I found myself headed to the nearest LDS Family History Center last week (against my wife's objections) with my 9 year-old son in tow. It's not so much that I care about the nobility aspect of this - moreso that it's a mystery to be solved (ie, which ancestor did it, and what exactly did he do to merit it?).
Kind regards, Brian Szente
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Re: Notation on marriage record
By my sources there was a Szente family, who have been noble at 1656, and got coat of arm at 1688, what was repeated at 1718. Their orename was bolgárfalvi. They did not get any properties with the noble rank, it was only "armalis". They proved their noble also in county Fejér at 1754/55, when the noblemen were counted (something like a census)Only for interesting: Bolgárfalva is/was in Transylvania.....
Since the Szente is a not too rare name, you can find a really important Szente family, the mágocsi Szente (the name is known from 1271), but they did not have any roots in county Fejér, so it is possible, that your Szente family is the bolgárfalvi. I am sorry, but do not know how to attache picture to the board, so I can not send you the coat of arms of bolgárfalvi Szente family. Lajos Reich, Hungary
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Re: Notation on marriage record
Lajos,
Thank you very much for this interesting and informative reply. I'm aware that the city of Székesfehérvár suffered greatly during the Ottoman occupation from 1543-1688, and I would not be surprised to find that my ancestors arrived there from elsewhere. Once my films arrive at the LDS Family History Center I'll happily resume my search and see if I am linked to this bolgárfalvi Szente family.
Incidentally, for my own edification where were the mágocsi Szente family located?
Might I also inquire as to your sources? I have some photocopies tucked away somewhere that provide brief family trees of some Szente families and am curious to see if they are from the same sources as you have consulted.
One last question - could you clarify the term "armalis" for me? Many thanks!
Kind regards, Brian Szente
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Re: Notation on marriage record
Brian, the armalis is a "New-Latin" word (we say in Hungary: "kitchen-Latin"), and means from word to word: "letter with coat of arm"; of course the letter means here certification. The beneficiary, with the same certification did not get property(es) as same, as earlier. In the same way, it was a great thing too,because the noblemen: - had special adventages, for example they did not pay taxes, - if the noblemen have been landlord, could get taxes by the bondsmen and he could compel the bondsmen to work in his lands freely, - in Hungary the nobleship had not as ranks, as in Western-Europe; all of the noblemen were equal, so who had an armalis, had all rights, as the others (later the dukes, barons etc) had. The ranks of the nobleship started to develop only in the middle Habsburg age. My sources, fromwhere I informed you, is my "library", where I have really a lot of books, many of them older than 100 years, but I have 200 - 250 years old ones; some of them in Latin, but mostly in Hungarian language. Please, accept, that without you knowledge I can not prove, which noble-line yours are from. Otherwise the Szente is quite frequent name, the archaic form of that is Zentus (I hope, you know the Hungarian pronunce) which developed from the word Szent (Saint), but means correctly "as good person as he would be a saint). It was used also to towns' names, and in some countries was used as a mirror translation (Heilige-, Svatus- etc like an appliance the assimilation not only the people, but also the history) which are as wrong, as usually the mirror translations. May I write here the one of the jokeful mirror-translation, what I heard in my life: the famous Hungarian fishsoup is in Hungarian: halászlé. When you translate it on mirror way, it will be: "liquid of fisher". You can write me in person to my e-address, but please accept: now I have not too much energy and possibility for the detailed help; its cause is not written by public. By the way, are you sure, your line is noble? With the bests: Lajos Reich, Hungary
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