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Notation on marriage record

Re: Notation on marriage record

Posted: 14 Aug 2007 7:43PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Szente
Dear Lajos,

Thank you again for your most interesting reply.

At this time I cannot say with absolute certainty that my patriline is of noble extraction. My only points of evidence thus far are the recollections of my great grandfather, passed on to me indirectly via my grandfather and my uncle. Apparently he often spoke of our surname as "going back to the kings." No one in my family was ever really sure what that meant since he himself was a tool and die maker by trade, and his father was trained as a blacksmith.

Among the interesting points relating to my great grandfather were that he spoke fluent German (related to an undocumented and slightly suspect family story about his apprenticing as a blacksmith in Berlin), and that he was well-versed in the art of wine-making. This information lead me to believe that my modest immigrant ancestors might not always have been humble blacksmiths from Budapest.

The only concrete item that I can point to thus far as pertaining to nobility is the notation on the church register for the marriage of my great grandparents. In that entry, the term "nemes" precedes my great grandfather's name.

As a scientist myself, I am very wary of relying on statements made without any supporting data. Consequently, I am prepared to build my genealogical research generation by generation and will allow the data to lead me to my conclusions about any possible noble status my family may once have held.

In the coming weeks I will be continuing my research after a lengthy hiatus and hopefully, if my family remained in one geographic location for long enough, I will begin to bridge the gap to my (possibly) noble roots.

My sincere thanks once again for the information you have provided, both now and in the past.

Kind regards,
Brian Szente

Re: Notation on marriage record

Posted: 14 Aug 2007 8:29PM GMT
Classification: Query
Brian,
I will not be at home for some days, please help to my memory and write: I try some search in my library more.
That means nothing, that your gggfather was blacksmith (look at armalis!!!!) and nobleman.
Same that he was blacksmith in Berlin, meant only an interesting thing. In Europe, especially in Hungary it was ordered for the candidates of masters getting experiences in many part of Europe. They were the abecedarian ambulatories. It was as same as to study by more schools or getting practice in more places. They got everywhere a certification about their knowledge, bus, etc. Of course this getting experiences did not mean too good salary :-(
When they came home, they showed these reports, and could be masters, member of their job's community. My grandfather was train-driver, his special practice was many places too, I know only one in Leoben, Austria, wher was(is?) big train repairing central. BTW he was Secler aristocrat, and of course as poor as the mouse of the church.
Now I end.
If you do not get answer in the next days, please, do not think I am impolite. Please, send me the names and datas, what you know of your line (you can take it by person, too)
With the bests: Lajos

Re: Notation on marriage record

Posted: 14 Aug 2007 8:33PM GMT
Classification: Query
bus = busy, diligence

Re: Notation on marriage record

Posted: 15 Aug 2007 5:59AM GMT
Classification: Query
Dear Brian!
When you look at the church records, please note the godparents too.
Often they give a clue to the social standing of the person.
The best thing you can do, is to take pictures of the relevant pages of the microfilm. They are often difficult to read. It would take a long time to examen them at the LDS center, where you have to hurry. But at home you have enough of it.
If something looks like beeing relevant, just click.
Or do not even look at the pages thoroughly, just take a picture.
But perhaps at your place the have already gone over to PC-s and CD. Than you just have to copy the monitor.

Whether the fact, that someone was noble or not, was recorded if the people requested it, or if the priest considered it appropriate.
As for your ancestor being a blacksmith, think back a few thousand of years: there were times, when being a blacksmith meant automaticaly to be noble, even to be the king!

In the old church register the word "nemes" did not often occur as such. There were alternative words to signify it.
I think it came into use after 1848, when the privileges were abolished. Someone could achieve a position formerly reserved for noblemen, and be titled "úr" = esquire, so it was important for some people of humbler occupation, to show that they were noble.
Before 1848 it was relevant if someone were noble, so i suppose someone kept a register of them. Probably not officially, because I have not heard of any such thing. But as only noblemen could vote, someone must have known who was and who was not noble.
Actually if the noble community accepted someone as being noble, although he was not, he was treated as such, including the privileges. At least until someone protested against it. But by that time he may have got a patent of nobility.

I have written on my families homepage (www.rakovszky.eu) about the poor relations who were noble artizans or peasents. (Text is in English too.)
Some time later someone sent me information about a member of my family - connection is not known yet - a noble shuemaker!

Greetings
Stephan

Re: Notation on marriage record

Posted: 16 Sep 2007 9:23PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Szente
Hello again Lajos,

Please accept my apologies for the delayed reply, but I was hoping to have some luck at my local LDS family history center and perhaps have some new data to share regarding my patriline.

Unfortunately it looks as if some additional detective work will be in order. Even though my great-great grandparents were married in the cathedral in Székesfehérvár in 1873, it does not appear as though either of them were baptized there (in either 1848 or 1852). At this point I plan to investigate the other 2 parishes in Székesfehérvár – namely the Felsõváros parish and the military parish – before exploring other options.

As an alternative, I checked in the 1843 census of nobility for Fejér megye. In so doing, I came up with several possible locations, a number of which are in reasonable proximity to Székesfehérvár including:

Polgárdi
Seregélyes
Bicske
Bodmér
Felcsút
Tinód (Sárbogárd)
Rácalmás

Given the fact that my surname also turns up in some locations in Veszprém megye, I was wondering if you were aware of any analogous listings of nobility for Veszprém megye for approximately the same time frame (~1840s). I didn’t see anything specific in the LDS catalog, but I am well aware that their listings are far from exhaustive.

I have heard that the 1828 census of landowners did not necessarily include the nobility, so I have been hesitant to depend on that source. Is this reported exclusion in fact true?

I have also explored localities on the 1715 census available on the Arcanum website and came up with a few of interest (present-day locations in both Fejér megye and Veszprém megye), even though this predates any knowledge that I have of my family by >130 years.

It will be another 2 or 3 weeks until my next microfilms arrive, so in the meantime, I’m open to suggestion.

Best regards,
Brian

Re: Notation on marriage record

Posted: 23 Sep 2007 1:50AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Szente
Dear Lajos,

I have been doing some more research of late at my local LDS family history center. No new leads yet, but I have ordered a significant number of new microfilms. Perhaps in a few weeks I will have something new to go on...

In the meantime, I was wondering if you could enlighten me a bit more about the information available on the Szente family from Bolgárfalva. I am curious to know whether or not they may have been a Székely family, or if they were any relation to the families noted as Szent-egyedi (branch of Wass?). Unfortunately it seems that my curiosity has outpaced my information gathering yet again!

Janet Kozlay was also kind enough to forward me the coat of arms for a Szente family (sounds like this Bolgárfalvi Szente family you have mentioned).

Thanks again!

Kind regards,
Brian

Re: Notation on marriage record

Posted: 17 Dec 2007 12:25AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Szente
Hello Lajos (and everyone),

As the holidays are fast approaching and my genealogical research has slowed down accordingly, I found the time to go through some old papers that I had set aside some time ago.

One particular item that caught my eye was an item that I had downloaded when Arcanum had the text of Kempelen Béla's Magyar nemes családok. Although my understanding of Hungarian is minimal at best, am I correct in understanding that the second paragraph below indicates a connection of the Szente-Mágócs to Fejér megye?

Kind regards,
Brian Szente

Szenthe.

A családi hagyomany a Szente-Mágócs nemzetségbõl származtatja a családot, erre nézve azonban hiteles bizonyitékunk nincs. A legrégebbi adapt, melyet a családra vonatkozólag találunk, az V. László király által Szenthei, másképen Sárói Mátyásnak, a király iródeákjának, atyja, Györgynek, testvérei, Bálintnak és Imrének s atyai unokafivere Simonnak 1456. jan. 31. adományozott cimereslevél. Az ebben adomanyozott cimer a következõ: kék mezõben arany eke, mögötte arany törzsbõl kinõtt 3, arany fészkü piros rózsa; csõrsisak; sisakdisz: a pajzsbeli 3 rózsa; takaró: vörös-arany. A család õsi fészke a Pozsonym.-i Leanyvár volt, honnét >>leányvári<< Szenté-knek is nevezték. Pozsonym.-bõl elszármazott Komáromm.—be s János személyében 1699. nemesi bizonyságlevelet nyert, melyet Komáromm. 1700. hirdetett ki. Késõbb Pestm.-be telepszik meg s nemességét 1844. Pestm. Is kihirdette. Egyes tagjai Nagykõrösön, Dunavecsén, stb. éltek. – Cimereslevele a MNMuz. Lt.-ban.

Nemzedékrendje a XVI. Század végén elt Balázs-ig vezethetõ vissza. Fiaiban 3 ágra szakadt a család. A három fitestvér Máté, Istvan es Gergely voltak I. Máté aga: Máté fia Pál; ezé Zsigmond; Pál; Mária; és Jozsef karancsi lelkész; Ez utobbinak gyermekei: Lászlo dárdai urad. mérnök; akinek 4 leánya volt és Juliánna, Kis Andrasné. ; Gergely a Komáromm.-i Acson élt; fia Péter (1764. Fejérm.) Az õ felesége Nagy Eva, akitõl Dániel (szül. 1784. márc. 16.) nemességét 1808. Fejérm.-ben hirdettette meg. Gyermekei: Krisztina Csekey Istvánné (1824-1901.), aki Zengõvárkonyban volt ref. lelkész; Mihály (1825-1891), Pestm. számvevõje, felesége Klimka Antónia; Fia: Kálmán (szül. 1873. szept. 19.) törvényszéki elnök Balassagyarmat. Felesége 1. Berczelly Sarolta (megh. 1906.), 2. Giller Ilona (megh. 1928.). Gyermekei: 2-ik feleségetõl: 1. Katalin (szül. 1910. márc. 10.); 2. Kálmán (szül. 1913. febr. 28.); 3. Margit (szül. 1919. szept. 20.) Mihály nõvére Juliánna, akinek férje Meszlényi Viktor (Kossuth Lajos feleségének fivére) volt. –A harmadik ágon István Füssön lakott; fia János (1700.); ezé Balázs 1754, Gyõr), felesége Zsoldos Zsuzsánna; fia Pál (1797.) akinek felesége ns. Varga Éva; ezé Bálint; Pál; és János (1814.)

Re: Notation on marriage record

Posted: 20 Oct 2014 11:30PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: zso
A bit late, but there are Szente family in Fejer megye:)
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