While researching, I came across the letters "ap" in front of a name. Here is an example:
ap Rhys, William (~1525 - 1588) - male b. ABT. 1525 in Boemar,BUCK,Eng. d. 1588 in Boemer, Buckinghamshire, England father: ap Gruffudd, Rhys (~1454 - 1532) mother: Howard, Katherine (~1508 - 1548) spouse: Myal, Thomasine (1524 - >1568) - m. 30 AUG 1546 in Suffolk, England ----------child: Rice, Henry (~1555 - )
Has anyone ever seen this before?
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Before surnames were invented, people were kept straight by their trades, physical characteristics or fathers.
"Ap" means "son of" in Welsh, the same as "bin" in Moslem countries, "anak" in Iban, "son" in Scandanavian and "fitz" in Norman French.
Thus if Albert begot Bruce, who begot Charles, who begot Daniel, their names would be
Albert the Strong (or the Blacksmith) Bruce ap Albert Charles ap Bruce Daniel ap Charles
If they were Norwegian, Swedish or Danish they would be:
Albert the Red Bruce Albertson Charles Bruceson Daniel Charleson
Except their first names would have been Lars, John and Ander.
Osama bin Lauden is much in the news, regrettably. One wonders what his father, Lauden, thinks of him.
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I understand what you are saying, but how does that apply to this:
(ap) William Rhys is the son of (ap) Rhys Gruffudd.
Did William take his fathers first name for his surname?
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This to me looks like Gruffudd the red (or the Carpenter) begot Rhys ap Gruffudd, who begot William ap Rhys with each son taking his father's name as a surname. ------------------------- (ap) William Rhys is the son of (ap) Rhys Gruffudd.
Did William take his fathers first name for his surname?
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So, if I'm understanding the pattern, ferch means "daughter of"?
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i dont know,but if he went by ap as 1st name maybe thats why no one can find documantiaon on william ap rhys/rice. edmund rice foundation i guess for yrs been trying too find more info on family tree paper prove.
now u got me wondering, Myal,Thomasine what is 1st name on ure list,i got thomasine mynn in my tree,i see its reversed in ures.mine got katherine howard ures got howard katherine..i wonder if u reverse the name william rhys ap "ap as last name"same thing for his father.odd i got griffith ap rhys marrried too katherine howard,when i research gruffudd it came up "gruffydd rhys ap" no matter how it spelt takes me too ruler of the kingdom of Deheubarth in south Wales 1132 – 28 April 1197,wow i never new that either
u wouldnt happen too have any thing too prove henery rice father is william ap rhys would ya,i mean a paper trail profe.
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Ap means son of. Thus William son of Rhys
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oh son of,, that explains why i was seeing ap who wasnt a rhys in there name.
thanks
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...and I believe it stands for Abandoned Patronymics.
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Ap and Ab mean "the son of". Ap goes before the father's name if it starts with a consonant, and Ab goes before it if it starts with a vowel. In the Welsh language W and Y are considered vowels.
For women, "verch" or "ferch" goes where Ap or Ab goes. Merch or Ferch are Welsh words for "girl" or "daughter"
e.g. Rhys ap Gruffydd (Rhys, the son of Gruffydd) Rhys ab Owain (Rhys, the son of Owain) Nest ferch Rhys (Nest, the daughter of Rhys)
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