Coat of Arms & Heraldry - Family History & Genealogy Message Board

Sourcing a medieval COA

jdv007 — 2013-02-08 16:30:09Z

Does anyone know an armorial or source that would document the coat of arms of a minor noble in the Luxembourg area between about 1100-1350 AD?

A knight (title of "Seigneur" in French so basically "Lord of the Manor") took the name "de Vance" around 1100 and was a vassal of the Count of Chiny in Lotharingia in what is now the south-eastern tip of Belgium. At times over the next few centuries the family owed fealty to Chiny, Loos, Bar, and Luxembourg. A Belgian historian published extensive research on the family about 50 years ago which is generally well-sourced but he quotes only "old records" for the coat of arms carried by the early de Vances which he says was "Or, four pales gules in chief."

I know what that looks like (attached) but am wondering if there are any known available records to confirm it. Rietstap at least doesn't have it listed.

Loutsch's armorial does give a completely different shield for "de Vance" - "seven fleurs de lys posed 2-3-2" (doesn't mention tinctures). However, the title of "de Vance" passed to families of other surnames by about 1350; it's entirely possible either someone in the de Vance family registered a new COA, or that it's one for a later family with the title but a different surname. "de Vance" as a family surname (without the title) died out in the region in the mid 1600s; the title continued until local titles were abolished after the French Revolution.

I realize this is a long shot but was wondering if any of the experts knew of a source that might have documented those first arms.

(and yes, by the way, I'm aware that there are other arms registered for "Vance", in particular an Irish one and an English one both from the 1800s. And no, I'm not claiming any of these, just interested in the history!).

Dave Vance

Re: Allner - Coat of Arms "Family Crest"

Armando_Framarini — 2013-02-05 17:42:47Z

It resemebles the Allner Familienwappen or "Family Arms" that is connected to the Merckelbach/Merckelbeeck German/Belgium family.

Have you traced your Allner family to Germany, Belgium or Alsace, France?

Genealogy has to be done first.

Seefeldt Coat of Arms

bonnielass55 — 2013-01-08 18:15:02Z

Hi I wonder if anyone knows anything about my German Coat of Arms, it was passed down to me from grandparents to parents after they died. I have tried over the years to find out more about it to find out more about my ancestors. My family book goes back to 18th century bot obviously apart from where my Oma and Opa moved to I don't know where his brothers and sisters landed up.
I vaguely remember my father telling me when I was young that an ancestor Baron Von Seefeld/Von Seefeldt? gambled away his castle. Any information or pointing me to where I could find more information would help.

Re: Allner - Coat of Arms "Family Crest"

gjks — 2013-01-08 10:48:19Z

The only way that you can do your family history is to get a complete genealogical research done which entails, at the least, Birth/Baptism Certificates, Marriage Certificates and Death/Burial Certificates for each generation. Without these items you have no hope at all.

However, that said, you can always join the multitude of gullible people who are just too ready to part with their hard earned money in the hope of taking a 'short cut' to family history. Believe me, THERE IS NO SHORT CUT. All those internet places that offer you 'your family history' are selling you something fraudulently as they have no knowledge whatsoever of your ancestry and I can tell you for a fact that they certainly don't do any genealogical research.

You say "I have attached a picture of our Coat of Arms, the one that has been left for me". 'Our coat of arms'? What proof do you have for making that statement? All I can say is please don't be so naive to accept anything without the legitimate genealogical research attached. Those arms that you show in that illustration are the typical sort of product dispensed by what is called a 'bucket shop'. That is a typical 20th century 'Bucket Shop Production" which can easily be defined as such because of the myriad of 'heraldic bloopers' that they contain.

You would do well to read the 'Frequently Asked Questions' that are displayed at Francois Velde's excellent web-site at http://www.heraldica.org/questions.htm

Allner - Coat of Arms "Family Crest"

pallner — 2013-01-07 08:36:47Z

Good Day Everyone,

I am on the hunt for my family's history but I can't find no where any information in regards with it, I found several "Allner" Coat of Arms but not the one who was left for me by my great grandfather, if anyone can help me I would appreciate it. I would like an printed copy of the Coat of Arms, history scroll ect.

I have attached a picture of our Coat of Arms, the one that has been left for me.

Thanks for assisting.

Re: Would these families be related?

LynetteHadley — 2013-01-07 06:21:48Z

Oh well, they aren't going anywhere....I'm sure that I shall be able to pin them down eventually!! :)

Re: Relationship between English and French arms

gjks — 2013-01-07 02:35:33Z

Certainly a contentious subject. However, it has been firmly established that hereditary 'arms' were first used on 9th century seals. From there they graduated to being displayed on lance pennons and it is these pennons that are depicted on the Bayeux Tapestry. Most, if not all, of the lance pennons with 'heraldic designs' are carried by the Flemish contingent of duke William's invading army.

The subject is more fully examined in the book "Origns of Heraldry" (ISBN 0-906650-00-3) by Beryl Platts (1980) which traces the Flemish families involved with the Battle of Hastings. She subsequently produced two more books, "Scottish Hazard" in two volumes; Vol.1 - 'The Flemish Nobility and their Impact on Scotland' and Vol.2 - 'The Flemish Heritage', both of which further explain just how the arms of the Flemish aristocracy managed to appear in the earliest rolls of Scottish arms. Apparently there was quite a large exodus post-1066 from Flanders to Scotland and several Scottish families are of distinctly Flemish orign; the Lindsays who stem from the Flemish Alost family who appeared in the Bayeux Tapestry in the guise of Baldwin of Alost and his brother Gilbert of Ghent. Gilbert was the father of Walter de Lindsey, the founder of the Lindsay family name in Scotland.

Another Flemish family represented in the Bayeux Tapestry is that of Bethune (Hereditary Advocates of Boulogne) who founded the Scottish Beaton family. The arms of the two family branches only differed in the colour of the field, the Gules field in the Bethune arms being replaced with the Azure field in the Scottish Beaton arms.

There are another couple of lance pennons that are depicted in the Bayeux Tapestry that have been firmly established as eventually appearing in both English and Scottish early rolls of arms.

Re: Relationship between English and French arms

jempyne1 — 2013-01-06 13:34:47Z

Thanks for that , the Courtenay example is apt as the de Pyn's in Devon owed fealty to the Courtenay's at one point in Devon.
Surprised at the ref to arms in the Bayeux tapestry, understood the consensus was that the evidence was that there was no meaningful use of specific arms that early and only really came in from later in the 12th century.

Re: Relationship between English and French arms

gjks — 2013-01-06 11:32:54Z

Yes, that is something that has occurred. The best known example that I know of are the arms of one of duke William's Flemmish allies in 1066 - the Counts of Boulogne (Flanders, not France) whose arms appear in the Bayeux Tapestry - Or three Torteaux. These arms are also used by the current Earl of Devon with the surname of Courtenay. They also appear in the fairly modern arms of a bloodline relative, but with the addition of a Bordure and a Chevron.

Relationship between English and French arms

jempyne1 — 2013-01-05 21:45:27Z

Can anyone confirm examples of English Norman families using devices to distinguish between their branch and the senior branch in France. One posible is the family of de Pyn with estates in Devon from 1150's with same arms as de Pins family in France but with addition of ermine chevron. Would that be a typical or likely move?
Jeremy

Re: Would these families be related?

timtracker — 2012-12-30 02:42:44Z

Yes it is confusing.

Your source might be right in that some people named Finnie originated in Scandinavia, whilst another family with the same spelling originated elsewhere.

The reason they are difficult to pin down is simple. Lack of written records. If only they had us genealogists in mind back then.

Online sources suggest the name is gaelic - O'Feanna, meaning son of (O' now dropped in this line) of a soldier (Feanna mutated in to Finnie). The intermixing between Irish and Scottish blood lines is huge, though the name, as I said previously, could come from literally anywhere. Scotland certainly has links with Scandinavia in abundance. However, I can't find any source that describes the name as Scandinavian.

Re: Would these families be related?

LynetteHadley — 2012-12-29 06:51:47Z

Thank you so much for this. Actually, I am led to believe that the Finnie name in Scotland is of Scandinavian origin? Altough it was listed as a Pictish name in an old Icelandic equivalent of the Domesday Book?

It's all very confusing!

I shall nevertheless see what I can find re: Ireland. For a rather famous (infamous?!) family, they are very difficult to pin down at times. I do know that my Finnies were originally from Constablewood (Largs), but think that they may have moved to there from Bishopstoun with the Brisbanes.

Re: Would these families be related?

timtracker — 2012-12-29 03:38:49Z

It seems likely that the families are, at least distantly, related. Proving it would be another matter. In theory such arms are inherited, with the main inheritors assuming an un-changed design. Other relatives, possibly cousins, would use a slightly amended version, hence the variation. Spelling changes over time in a similar organic fashion.

The problem is that people can assume that their name comes from the same root as the family that has the coat of arms. Unfortunately, this is not necessarily so. Consequently, people assume the right to use a particular coat of arms when actually their name comes from somewhere else.

The Finnies seem to trace their history back to the Ballyfeeney area. So, if both families can trace their roots to this area, they really could be from the same family. An interseting, if heroic, goal would be to prove or dis-prove the link.

Would these families be related?

LynetteHadley — 2012-12-28 23:10:07Z

Hi All,

I was reading a book about heraldry, and found that my cousin's Arms (Robert Finnie McEwen) included as Arms of Affection, the Finnie Arms. Researching further, I found the Arms of William Finnie of Hilbrae, and those of James Phine of Whitehill. All of these Arms bear striking similarities, and I'm trying to ascertain whether or not the families were closely-related. Interestingly, the Phine Arms had a notation: "Fin of yt ilk", which I take to be "Fin of that ilk". I'm finding it all to be very confusing. Thoughts?

Many thanks in advance,
Lynne.

Re: au roy ne nuis mais bourbon suis.......silver box with this inscription

halpark — 2012-12-06 16:15:09Z

Mottos are almost always difficult. Au = a le = to the, so "To the king no harm... " mais has several meanings but "but" seems to fit here, "suis" can be "am", as in je suis = I am but it is also part of the verb suivre = to follow. So it could be "To the king no harm but follow the Bourbons". What exactly it refers to is anyone's guess.

Re: au roy ne nuis mais bourbon suis.......silver box with this inscription

gjks — 2012-12-04 22:46:13Z

Literal translation is ...
"the Roy night but bourbon am".

Re: au roy ne nuis mais bourbon suis.......silver box with this inscription

jwolfepearson — 2012-12-03 03:56:53Z

I saw this and it is French for Roy not harmed but the bourbon am.

Re: Koehler coat of arms

gjks — 2012-11-16 09:01:37Z

A slight incorrectness in your statement - it should read 'A Koehler blazon', not 'The Koehler blazon'.

Re: Koehler coat of arms

davidbappleton13 — 2012-11-15 17:00:55Z

An equivalent English blazon might be:

Azure, two mullets of six points and one mullet of eight points Or, two and one, a base Or charged with a cross patty Azure.

I have attached a scan of this coat of arms from Rolland and Rolland's Illustrations to the Armorial-Général.

The "casque coronné" (crowned helmet) simply describes the helm which would sit atop the shield.

I hope that all of this is helpful to you.

David

Koehler coat of arms

robertkoehler_1 — 2012-11-15 15:21:53Z

Rietstap's Armorial General gives the Koehler blazon as:

D'azur, à trois étoiles d'or, 2 et 1, les deux du chef à six rais et celle en pointe à huit rais, à la champagne d'or, ch. d'une croix pattée d'azur. Casque couronné.

What is the English translation of this? What is the proper way to give this blazon?

Re: Tripp Coat of Arms

gjks — 2012-10-18 03:57:54Z

If the afore-mentioned John Tripp came from England, he woukld not have had 'family arms' as there is no such thing as 'family arms' in the UK. In the UK, Arms are granted to a person and can be inherited, in the main, only by his male line descendants that still bear the original Tripp surname.

Re: Jelley coat of arms

gjks — 2012-10-17 13:37:06Z

Sorry to have to advise you of this, but you'll have to do the genealogical research for yourself as this message board is to reply to queries on heraldry, not genealogy.

Jelley coat of arms

lee_jelley — 2012-10-16 21:18:33Z

Hi All,

I was looking online recently after doing some research on my family name, and came across a Jelley coat of arms heradry, I am wondering how I could find out if it belongs within my family line?

I would really appreciate any help on this.

Thanks.

Re: Tripp Coat of Arms

atripp62 — 2012-09-29 10:47:06Z

I am a Tripp Direct Descendant of John The Founder and I have a photograph of a Church Window with the actual Tripp Family Coat of Arms belonging to John The Founders Family Line. You can contact me at atripp62@yahoo.com

Re: Tripp Coat of Arms

atripp62 — 2012-09-29 10:45:15Z

I have a picture of a church window in New Zealand with the actual Tripp Coat of Arms for The John Tripp The Founder Family. You can contact me at atripp62@yahoo.com

Re: Family Coat of Arms

2012-09-22 15:26:46Z

Responded in private....

re: Coat of arms for surname Hicks?

Austin_Friars_London — 2012-09-08 16:21:30Z

In Google Books "The British Herald; Or, Cabinet of Armorial Bearings of the Nobility ..."

At this link>>>
http://books.google.com/books?id=vhFABIZRAycC&lpg=PT43&a...

You will have to do your genealogy FIRST to find out if your Family connects to an Ancestor who bore arms.

May also have to check for aliases or variant like HIX!

Re: Coat of arms for surname Hicks?

davidbappleton13 — 2012-09-08 16:20:54Z

There is not a coat of arms for the surname "Hicks". Burke's "General Armory" (of some 60,000 coats fo arms from all over the British Isles) notes four different coats of arms to individuals named Hickes and seven different coats of arms to individuals named Hicks. (And this ignores any other spellings of the name, like Hick or Hicke.)

Is there a particular Hicks line in your family that you think may have had a coat of arms? If you could tell us the names, dates, and places of these individuals, we might be better able to assist you.

David

Coat of arms for surname Hicks?

Steven_Zollinger — 2012-09-08 16:20:43Z

coat of arms for the sir name hicks.

Re: Can anyone provide some help on this?

davidbappleton13 — 2012-08-30 21:26:57Z

It's a highly decorative element, but it is not heraldic by any stretch of the imagination. So, no, it's not a coat of arms (or "family crest" to use the common, but incorrect, term).

David

Can anyone provide some help on this?

DonStempAccount01 — 2012-08-30 16:25:22Z

I hope no one minds my query on this forum but I'm not sure where to start looking. A friend just moved into a new apartment and removed a picture hanging on the wall and found the attached on the wall (previously hidden). I'm wondering if anyone might recognize it or have any idea what it is, what it means, if it a family crest or such - anything. Thank you very much to everyone in advance.

Re: unknown Coat of Arms/family crest

curtiselaine1 — 2012-07-20 02:22:54Z

thank you gjks for your help.

Re: unknown Coat of Arms/family crest

gjks — 2012-07-17 04:39:03Z

Far better for you to do your genealogy first - work backwards from yourself on your paternal bloodline first.

Re: unknown Coat of Arms/family crest

curtiselaine1 — 2012-07-17 02:56:29Z

i wish i could show you it but i don't have it or know what it looks like anyway. thank you gjks for trying to help.

Re: unknown Coat of Arms/family crest

curtiselaine1 — 2012-07-17 02:55:15Z

thank you David for helping. one day i may find it.

unknown Coat of Arms/family crest: Hudson, Mann, Castledine

curtiselaine1 — 2012-07-13 03:29:13Z

I hope someone can help me. I think their is a family crest but I have idea what name it belongs to i was told that Irene Mann born Hudson 1922 Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England used it when showing her bull terrir dogs but it could belong to Hudson, Castledine or someother name I don't know. How can I find out about the crest? any help would be great thank you.

Re: unknown Coat of Arms/family crest

davidbappleton13 — 2012-07-12 16:19:24Z

Doing a quick search through Burke's "General Armory" finds two different Mann coats of arms with lions on them, and two different Hudson coats of arms with lions on them, but no coats of arms at all for Castledine (under any spelling). This is not to say that these are the only arms for these names that have lions on them, only that these are the only ones in Burke, which only contains about 60,000 coats of arms for the British Isles. There may be others which do not appear in Burke.

However, in none of these arms are the lions the main element: in the Mann arms, there are three lions placed about a chevron (an inverted V shape); in one of the Hudson arms, there is one lion (and two boar's heads) placed about a fess (a wide horizontal stripe); and in the other Hudson arms, three lions appear on a fess, which fess is between three boar's heads.

So I don't see any of these coats being a good candidate for the arms you are seeking.

I'm sorry that we are not being of much assistance to you here.

David

Re: unknown Coat of Arms/family crest

gjks — 2012-07-12 00:53:53Z

{...to do with a lion i was told it looked like a royal one}
That's not much help at all.
...a royal Lion? What is that supposed to mean?
There are hundreds of thousands of arms containing a Lion!
How about posting an image of it so that we might be able to positively assist you.

Re: unknown Coat of Arms/family crest

curtiselaine1 — 2012-07-10 03:28:28Z

it is a guess i think it had something to do with a lion i was told it looked like a royal one. i hope that can help.

Re: unknown Coat of Arms/family crest

davidbappleton13 — 2012-07-09 20:29:56Z

It would be a great help if you had a description of the coat of arms for which you are searching. There are several different coats of arms belonging to different families named Mann, and I expect (without having looked them up) that the same is true for Hudson and Casteldine.

Is there any way you could give us a description of the arms you are looking for? Even a modestly detailed description in plain English (e.g., the shield is red with three white bells on it) would be of assistance.

David

Re: John Collingwood Mckechnie

mac5438 — 2012-06-21 19:52:32Z

Hi,
The heraldic artist is William McKechnie my great grandfather, born 24th August 1871. William married my great great grandmother Jessie Eliza Jones on 6th August 1899 in Westminster, the wedding certificate lists his father as John Mckechnie occupation - Coach Painter, (obviously a father to son trade) I have rare photo of William in Henty Potter Ltd. music workshops as he was their drum painter as well. William retired to West Drayton and painted many pub signs, (I have a newspaper cutting with photo's - one intriguing fact I have got nowhere with is a note in the photo "also featured is his beloved organ built by his great grandfather 200 years ago" - always facinated me that. - Anway happy to respond on this to anyone, mac@mckechnie1396.freeserve.co.uk
Mac McKechnie. (Rogan Collingwood McKechnie)

Re: Surname Hunt - Can anyone identify this family crest please?

gjks — 2012-06-21 04:42:11Z

Hi there.
Actually, that blazon reads, "On a Mount Vert a Talbot sejant Or collared and lined Gules the lining fastened by a bow-knot to a Halberd erect Staff of the second Blade Argent". (Page 250 of my edition of "Fairbairn's Crests" - Tuttle edition dated 1968).

As mentioned elsewhere, there are also several other Hunt crests, but tracing ancestry via crests is not an exact science because crests can be changed at any time - it is the actual arms that are the important bit which can be traced to a finite point. Only properly evolved evidence of a documentary nature (a paternal pedigree) will let you know if what you are chasing is an actual fact or just another of those 'family myths'.

That actual crest is also ascribed to the following family surnames; Burgoyne, Colne, Colney, Gessors, Ghrimes, Hoofsteller, Horne, Norris, Plumbe, Sturges, Temple, Topliffe, and Toplis.

Re: Identification of coat-of-arms in wax seal, possibly Hungarian

gjks — 2012-06-21 04:22:41Z

Sorry,but I've just trawled through all 5800-odd pages of Siebmacher's Hungarian arms and didn't find either of the arms shown.

Re: Identification of coat-of-arms in wax seal, possibly Hungarian

CoffeyRoth — 2012-06-20 22:22:18Z

Many thanks...it would seem then that I need to look elsewhere in Europe. I didn't expect this would be easy.

Re: Surname Hunt - Can anyone identify this family crest please?

clrobartson — 2012-06-20 13:44:58Z

I am interested in this crest as one of my forebears a William Hunt was settled in Ireland by the British Government prior to 1750. It has been suggested that it is his family crest as per Fairbairn's Book of Creasts page 292 as follows "On amount cvert a talbot sejant or collared and lined gu- on a line fastened by a bow knot to a halberd erect the staff of the second the blad argent". As sugested by others it may be one of a number of Hunt crests, whether the Willian above I am not sure.As a young lad my grandmother did show me a folk with this crest inscribed on the handle.

Identification of coat-of-arms in wax seal, possibly Hungarian

CoffeyRoth — 2012-06-18 16:45:11Z

Can anyone assist in indentifying the coat-of-arms imprinted in this wax seal? The shield is quartered with a five-pointed star within an oak & laurel wreath (upper left & lower right) and a caduceus over a six-spoked wheel (upper right & lower left). The crest is a helmet wit rampant lion holding a cornucopia. The zseal is from a painting once in a Hungarian private collection. Any help with this would be greatly appreaciated.
John Coffey
North Carolina Museum of Art

Re: Anyone know anything about these Drake Arms - Yorkshire

gjks — 2012-06-06 05:49:30Z

Hi Nicole.

I'm sorry to be the one to advise you that tracing your present paternal (and maternal) bloodlines back to a possible armiger is fraught with frustration. I know as I've taken 30-odd years to trace back 17 generations to the 1490s with just my late Father's surname whish is quite a rare surname in the English=speaking world.

I have only managed to get back to the early 1800s for my late Mother's paternal pedigree as her surname was more abundant thereby creating numerous blind alleys when researching - my mother's surname was Smith and I'm sure you know just how abundant that surname is in relation to British genealogy.

That's also why there are over 500+ coats of arms registered in the surname of Smith in Britain. And again, that's why you have to do the proper thing and get that paternal pedigree traced back in order to verify whether the person (armiger) you are looking at is actually blood related.

If you care to email me at gjksau (at) yahoo.com.au I'll send you some of the Drake/Drakes things that I found on an initial search amongst my records.

Re: Anyone know anything about these Drake Arms - Yorkshire

Copakids — 2012-06-05 09:51:12Z

Thanks for replying!
i'm not an expert at this and the book I saw the Drake Family Listed in was the Visitation of Yorkshire with additions edited by JW Clay published in 1913. I haven't read the original but this edition does mention a Drake family that was in Yorkshire in the 1300's. it also mentions one member a Nathan Drake (who wrote a diary about the siege of the Pontefract Castle in 1645). In a biography of Nathan Drake I read that he was given Arms by Charles II but I don't know if this is true or not. I am not claiming ownership or any rights to these Arms but am just curious if they are real or if someone just Made then up! if they ate real then am wondering could they have possibly been given to Nathan Drake. Thanks Nicole

Re: Anyone know anything about these Drake Arms - Yorkshire

gjks — 2012-06-05 02:09:52Z

Hi Nicole.

Let's be clear just to which surname we're referring here - DRAKE or DRAKES?

There is no family of DRAKE recorded in the Visitation of Yorks in 1563-4 and there is no family of DRAKES recorded in the Visitation of Yorks 1665-6.

Do you gave a fully documented paternal genealogical pedigree going back to either of these two separate families? Without that documented link you can't establish any familial link.

The arms recorded for the DRAKES (1563) contain several (6) quarters, none of which refer to the arms mentioned in the 1665 Visitation. The arms recorded for DRAKE (1665) are fairly simple - a silver shield bearing a sitting red Wyvern. The specific record is also annotated as "No proofe made of these arms to belong to this family." The record that you refer to in the Visitation of Devonshire (1620) certainly has recorded the arms previously mentioned (Argent a Wyvern Gules).

You say, 'These ones are different.' - in what way are they different? To me they (Yorks 1665 & Devon 1620) appear to be exactly the same, although the Yorkshire ones weren't confirmed to that family recorded, only linked by a mention by the recorder of the pedigree.

Anyone know anything about these Drake Arms - Yorkshire

Copakids — 2012-06-02 10:26:58Z

Hi
My father-in-law comes from a long line of DRAKES from Yorkshire and he has inherited many old family portraits (from the 17th and 18th Centuries and also some note paper and stamps with the following Coat of Arms. This family appears in the Visitation of Yorkshire, however the arms listed there are the Arms usually attributed to the Drakes of Ashe from Devon. These ones are different. It would be great to find out more about them. Thanks Nicole