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Site to verify Coat of Arms?

Site to verify Coat of Arms?

Posted: 6 Apr 2014 2:57PM GMT
Classification: Query
Anyone have a site to verify a coat of arms?

Thank you

Tracy

Re: Site to verify Coat of Arms?

Posted: 7 Apr 2014 8:02PM GMT
Classification: Query
There is no one website which can verify a coat of arms for you. There are some entities in a few countries which can (for example, the College of Arms in London for English heraldry, or the Court of the Lord Lyon in Edinburgh for Scottish coats), but it's not something that is easily done on-line.

There are some books that can assist in helping to confirm the use of a coat of arms: Burke's "General Armory" and Papworth's "Ordinary of British Arms" for the British Isles, and Riestap's "Armorial Général" and Renesse's "Dictionnaire" for the Continent, but like all general works, there are errors in each one, and even then they do not cover all coats of arms in all places. There are, however, versions of the first three of those books available on-line.

You might have better luck asking about a specific coat of arms here or in one of the other forums on the web (e.g., the International Association of Amateur Heralds) or seeing if there is a group of heralds in a specific country if you believe the arms may have been used there (e.g., the Flemish Heraldic Council in Belgium) and asking them.

David

Re: Site to verify Coat of Arms?

Posted: 2 May 2014 11:56PM GMT
Classification: Query
Please tell us the Name of the person, or family name, with a picture or the description of the coat of arms.

Re: Site to verify Coat of Arms?

Posted: 14 Jun 2014 4:38PM GMT
Classification: Query
The ONLY organisation who can verify a coat of arms from England, Scotland, Ireland or Wales, is the College of Arms, London. They have a website for contact details.

You must contact the Herald in Waiting, currently Lancaster Herald.

It is illegal to use a coat of arms not granted to you or a direct male ancestor. You can be, and people have been, sued for doing so.

If you put coats of arms on your family tree, you must ensure that they are used for the person or direct descendants of the person, that they were originally granted to.

Coats of arms belong to individual people and their descendants, not families.

I hope this helps.

Re: Site to verify Coat of Arms?

Posted: 17 Jun 2014 7:10AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 17 Jun 2014 7:14AM GMT
QUOTE
The ONLY organisation who can verify a coat of arms from England, Scotland, Ireland or Wales, is the College of Arms, London. UNQUOTE
I'm sure that the previous poster meant well by their post, but I'm afraid that it contains erroneous information. The College of Arms is NOT 'the ONLY organisation who can verify a coat of arms from England, Scotland, Ireland or Wales'. They deal only with arms granted/registered in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They do not verify arms from other heraldic jurisdictions!. As far as I'm aware, the 'Officer in Waiting' changes from week to week.

QUOTE
You can be, and people have been, sued for doing so. UNQUOTE
As far as I'm aware, the only place where this might occur is in the Scottish heraldic jurisdiction. As previous replies have indicated, there is no central repository of authorised arms in existence. If you give us something to work with, we'll try and help you.

Re: Site to verify Coat of Arms?

Posted: 17 Jun 2014 10:47AM GMT
Classification: Query
For subjects of England, Wales and N Ireland, it contravenes civil law to use another man's arms, and the owner sues through the court of chivalry. In Scotland it is criminal law, and the Lyons King of Arms can take action.

I did specifiy only British Isles, same as gjks. For "Coats of Arms in England Scotland Wales and N Ireland, " take as written, those granted in GB.

The Earl Marshall of England, grants coats of Arms to subjects of the British monarch, on their behalf, and keeps records of the predigrees of armigerous families in GB. They have done for centuries.

Only the College of Arms does this in GB, if you want to use arms already granted in GB, or have new arms granted to a subject of the British monarch, the only organisation that can do this is the College of Arms London, on behalf of the Crown.

For a child of a British armigerous family to correctly use their family's arms, they have to be recorded at the College of Arms.

Countries other than GB have their own issuing authorities, and laws, it is probably best to contact the appropriate authority, although there are books and websites to help identify coats of arms, unfortunately, many are not entirely accurate; even church monuments are not always correct. This is why I suggest contacting the relevant issuing authority.

If you want to be sure of accuracy:-

For GB, you can always check with the College of Arms.

For other countries, check with that country's issuing authority.

Re: Site to verify Coat of Arms?

Posted: 21 Jun 2014 2:26PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 21 Jun 2014 2:31PM GMT
I see with interest that there is considerable confusion relating to the use of Coats of Arms, and that my wife, who is armigerous herself (and a top-flight genealogist who has had several pedigrees accepted by the College of Arms) has explained very clearly what the position is in the UK. I know that this is correct because I was there when the Herald-in-Waiting told her the information.

I've looked into the international position myself, and it is confused to say the least. For those who are interested in the bare facts:
Outside the jurisdiction of her Royal Majesty Queen Elizabeth II people can do more or less whatever they please, because the issuing authorities in the rest of the world are fairly disorganised, or non-existent.
As a result a great many websites which claim to sell legitimate Coat-Armour (coats of arms) have sprung up, but it is noticeable that they avoid being based in the UK as they would then be open to UK law suits, criminal in Scotland and civil in the rest of the UK.
The practice of buying and selling British Coat-Armour, whenever it was granted is obviously ludicrous, it is no-one's to sell (although it belongs to the grantee and their heirs) and buying it does not make one a descendant of the person it was granted to. It is an empty action.

You cannot buy your British family coat-of-arms from the internet. What you will be buying are arms granted to a specific man on a specific date which can only be inherited in accordance with the heraldic laws of Great Britain, with reference to the terms of the original grant.

There is only one body which can grant or confirm arms in the UK, allowing for the fact that the Lyon King of Arms (for Scotland, now Dr. Joseph Morrow, Lord Lyon) is himself an officer of the College of Arms. All others that claim to be able to verify or grant UK arms are mistaken. Identification of arms however is a wholly different matter, and is a very interesting and complex field open to anyone.

If you think you are the direct male line descendant of a man who held British arms, then contact the College of Arms. It is very well worth it, and the College officers are excellent and friendly people.

I do hope this is helpful.
Toby

Re: Site to verify Coat of Arms?

Posted: 22 Jun 2014 1:27PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 22 Jun 2014 2:30PM GMT
Dear Geoff, greetings;
It is a delight to communicate with a member who takes these matters seriously.
Your post seems to have gone astray, somehow it ended up with a non-Ancestry cousin of my wife and has been relayed to her by him. Bizarre, but as we know Ancestry has been experiencing some problems. Such an inappropriate e-mail direction is, one earnestly hopes, an accident.

For the edification of those reading the thread I include your lost post below, with it's useful comments, editing out your full name in case that was not intended for 'net publication.

Verification. The concept of confirmation or verification is sometimes a laughably diffuse one in colloquial English, however in Heraldic terms it implies that the right to bear Arms is known, agreed and documented by the appropriate body, therefore confirmation of Arms by the College of Arms (CofA) is a tautology in England. An armigerous person who has confirmed his or her Arms will have an "agent" at the CofA who dealt with their claim. If the armigerous person is unknown to the CofA yet is entitled to Arms by reason of male line descent then they may wish to make themselves known to the CofA in order to present a pedigree and have their Arms confirmed. The authority is here, and elsewhere on the CofA's website: http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/services/proving-a-right-t...

Your second point is quite right of course, persons rather than men, much better.

And indeed the third point, my geography is at fault, although the point remains that there are proper awarding and governing bodies throughout the domains of her Majesty, and that Arms are granted ultimately by her through the Earl Marshall of England (for instance). Obviously non-subjects of the Crown are subject to complex rules which govern their right to Arms which are distributed from the Crown.

Regarding the Scottish position, it is true that Dr Morrow is technically independent of the CofA, but is closely associated. The Scottish Crown refers to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II of course, so in fact he distributes the same "presents" as the CofA. although using a somewhat varied system.

I hope this assists understanding.
Regards,
Toby

In response to the mail reproduced below:
Hi there.
My name is [Geoff] and I’m a frequent replier to queries posted on the subject message board. I have been associated with heraldry for over 60 years, mainly in the heraldry of the British Isles, but definitely not confined to that area alone. I am personally armigerous and have had heraldic designs accepted for grants at the College of Arms as well as several registrations in overseas heraldic jurisdictions.

Your comment << There is only one body which can grant or confirm arms in the UK, allowing for the fact that the Lyon King of Arms (for Scotland, now Dr. Joseph Morrow, Lord Lyon) is himself an officer of the College of Arms. All others that claim to be able to verify or grant UK arms are mistaken. Identification of arms however is a wholly different matter, and is a very interesting and complex field open to anyone. >> has me mystified. What is the authority for this statement?

Your statement of << What you will be buying are arms granted to a specific man on a specific date …>>
I think that this statement should be revised as it is not only men that have arms granted to them; perhaps replace with the words ‘a specific person’?
<<… which can only be inherited in accordance with the heraldic laws of Great Britain, with reference to the terms of the original grant. >>
As far as I’m aware, there is no such thing as the ‘heraldic laws of Great Britain'. Great Britain and the United Kingdom are two entirely separate phrases that have differing explanations. Great Britain does not include any part of the island of Ireland whereas the term United Kingdom includes Northern Ireland. The British Isles is an inclusive term that includes England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland and all the ancillary islands that are part of that geographical group of land masses. If we are going to talk about the heraldic laws of Great Britain we have to include the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland, making a total of three heraldic jurisdictions in Great Britain, two in the UK, and one in Ireland collectively. I think that you should be a little more precise when using these terms.
The statement << There is only one body which can grant or confirm arms in the UK …>> is incorrect. There are two separate heraldic authorities within the United Kingdom – the Office and Court of the Lord Lyon in Scotland, and the College of Arms for England, Wales and Northern Ireland, each with a defined area of heraldic jurisdiction. There are entirely different statutes that apply to the two heraldic jurisdictions in the UK – Scottish, and the remainder of the UK. Scotland is still part of the UK, isn’t it? The Lord Lyon is a salaried public servant of the Scottish Crown, whereas the officers of the College of Arms are not public servants at all. If one is on the staff of the College of Arms, one is subject to the rulings of the Earl Marshal of England. As far as I’m aware, the Lord Lyon is definitely not subject to the authority of the Earl Marshal and is definitely not a member of the College of Arms. I think that your post needs to be revised.

I look forward to your reply.

Regards,



Geoff
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