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Emma Smith / East c1850. Leicester. Uk

Emma Smith / East c1850. Leicester. Uk

Posted: 7 Feb 2015 7:25PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 29 May 2015 8:38PM GMT
Surnames: Smith / East / Reynolds / McGowan
I am hoping to find information on my 2x great grandmother who I believe came from a Romany Gypsy family.
According to family history my maternal 2x great grandfather Thomas Reynolds born c1850 in London, Middlesex, occupation Journeyman Currier, married a young Gypsy girl. I believe her name was Emma Smith or Emma East.
The only information I have is my gr grandmother Maud McGowan neé Reynolds born 1880 in Sneinton, Nottingham, could remember sitting on the steps of Gypsy caravans, the family had travelled a lot and had gone poaching. Maud also read the tea cups, although never for her family! There was an uncle (possibly Maud’s) who I believe was called John Smith. He was a Baptist Minister and was known as John the Baptist.

Thomas Reynolds married Emma East in 1875 in Wellingborough, Northampton.
Her father was named as John East (Deceased) occupation Horse Dealer.
Thomas and Emma had 5 children:
Thomas b 1877 in Northampton
Stephen b 1878 in Northampton
Maud b 1880 in Sneinton, Nottingham (my great grandmother)
Emma b 1884 in Bristol?
Mary b 1886 in Bristol?
Emma Reynolds neé East or Smith died in 1887 in Bristol aged 32 yrs.
The family lived in Northampton, Nottingham, Crediton in Devon and Bristol.
The 1881 census states that Emma Reynolds was born in 1850 in Thealby, Leicester. On the hand written census return it could possibly be Shearsby, Leicester.
On the birth certificates of children Thomas and Maud their mother’s former name is Emma East. But on Stephen’s birth certificate her former name is Emma Smith.

A year after his wife's death Thomas remarried. In 1888 in Bristol, Thomas Reynolds married Emma Laura Loviett, they had a son Fred T Reynolds. Strangely on the 1891 census Emma Laura (Thomas was not at home on the census) gave the birthplace for her stepchildren as Uppingham, Rutland. This is incorrect as I have Thomas, Stephen and Maud’s birth certs.

Searching for Emma's father, I found a John East occupation Horse Dealer and his wife Senta Smith. I purchased their marriage certificate. They were married in 1843 in North Luffenham, Rutland. Witnesses were Daniel Price and Stephen Brown.
John East b1824 occupation Horse Dealer, father Robert East, occup Dealer.
Senta Smith b1824 father Samuel Smith occup Musician.

John East gives his occupation as Horse Dealer over the census years and Senta changes her name: Senty / Elizabeth / Lenar / Senta / Centilinca / Sentilena. The family were living in Nether Broughton, Melton Mowbray, Leicester.
They had 7 children but unfortunately not a daughter Emma born c 1850.
On the 1861 census at the end of the Parish were John East and family lived, was a large gathering of Travelling Gypsies ‘Smiths - UK - (No names were given)’. In total there were 17 males and 21 females (including several children). They were living on Green Hill, Nether Broughton. Leicester. (RG9/2303 page 22/23). How sad that there were no names given for these Gypsies.

I have several questions:
1) Why did Emma give different maiden names?
2) Why did 2nd wife Emma Laura give her stepchildren’s birthplace as Uppingham, Rutland. Were there family connections in Uppingham?
3) Was Emma Smith / East a daughter of John East and wife Elizabeth /Senta Smith?
4) Were either John East or Senta Smith from Gypsy families?
5) If Emma’s father was John East – why did she say he was deceased on her marriage certificate? Or were they not speaking!

I am sorry this is very long winded but I have tried to give as much information as possible with the hope that someone might be able to fit the last piece of the jigsaw together.
My mother is now 94years old says ‘it would be nice to know if we did have Romany blood in our veins’. I would love to fulfil her wishes and as she says ‘before it’s too late’!!!!

I thank anyone who is able to give me any information as to whether Emma Smith / Emma East was from a Romany Gypsy Family.

Regards.














Re: Emma Smith / East c1850. Leicester. Uk

Posted: 15 May 2015 11:27AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi,
We are related to the Smith Gypsy family of Nottingham... Gypsyish often swap there Christian and surnames... Often the parents weren't married and also were often in a union with other family members... Therefore it is after hard to trace them...

Have you made any headway since you posted your message. Do you still need some help?
Let me know. Kaziah

Re: Emma Smith / East c1850. Leicester. Uk

Posted: 15 May 2015 2:04PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Smith/East/Reynolds/McGowan
Hello Kaziah.
Many thanks for your reply and thank you for your interest.

No unfortunately I haven't made any headway since I posted the message. So yes please it would be wonderfull to have your help.

I have done a little further research but nothing has surfaced. I have been somewhat pre-occupied as my 94yr old mother is ill. I live in Denmark and have just booked my flights for next week to Newcastle which is my home town.

Hopefully I'll still be able to read my emails while I'm in Newcastle. If you do write to me and I don't reply for awhile - then you know the reason!!!

Kind regards. Carol.




Re: Emma Smith / East c1850. Leicester. Uk

Posted: 15 May 2015 10:43PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi Carol,

Fab... My Dad is also 94 and lives in Berkshire... I live in West Yorkshire...
If you leave it with me over the next few days, I'll have a look about and see what I can find...

Have you ever looked at the Eric Trudgill website? If not do - he is the font of all things Gypsy and a great Gypsyologist...

I may come back and ask more questions....

Just some quick answers - I'm no expert, but have found out lots over the last 20 odd years...

Your questions:
1. The parents may not have been legally married and gypsies often swap about their surnames.
2. She probably had to guess where they were born if he was not at home. upping ham has a large number of the Smith Gypsy clan living in and around the area.
3. Will check this back and see what I can find out
4. I would say they were Gypsy folk - Cinamenta, (Senta, Menta, Menty for short) is a Smith Cypsy Christian name...
5. She might not have known for sure if he was dead or alive?, may not have known who he was so made it up!!!? Has been done...

Will dig about and see what jumps up. I will look at the Eric Trudgill Smith Family Tree book I have and see if anything rings a bell... His books are great...

With what you've said I would defo say Gypsy, but unravelling it could be tricky, they often mislead, embellished, enhanced, evaded and lied abouth names, dates, places. They often didn't legally marry, and also often had more than one wife at the same time... And usually married a cousin of some sort, so the families are very interrelated... Nightmare drawing the tree :)

Kazi

Re: Emma Smith / East c1850. Leicester. Uk

Posted: 16 May 2015 4:01PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 17 May 2015 8:06AM GMT
Hi Kazi.
Many thanks for your info. Your answers to my questions were very interesting, gives me something else to think about. I have also looked at Eric Trudgill's website, there is a lot of very useful information, which I will read soon.

I may be completely 'barking up the wrong tree' when I say that the John East (Horse Dealer) and Senta Smith (father Muscian) were possibly Emma's parents. It was John's name and occupation and I thought that Senta was possibly a Gypsy name.

Mam also said she thought John Smith was my great grandmothers uncle - so possibly Emma's brother.

What a tangled web!!

Before moving to Denmark, I lived in Hudderfield for several years. It's a small world.

Thank you for your time and help.

Carol

Re: Emma Smith / East c1850. Leicester. Uk

Posted: 18 May 2015 9:46AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi again Carol...
A very small world... I now live in Barnsley, which is in South Yorkshire - but lived for 23 Years in Huddersfield and still own my house there!!! Very odd!

I haven't been able to get on to ancestry this weekend as for some reason it has been not letting me on? Never done that before... But back on now, so will look about.

Because Gypsies are so evasive it can be hard to pick up the trail... But I'll have a good go.
Kazi

Re: Emma Smith / East c1850. Leicester. Uk

Posted: 29 May 2015 3:51PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hello Kazi.

I hope you are well. I'm still in Newcastle but have been having problems with my internet and emails. As yet I haven't had time to do any further research, things are a bit hectic here but hopefully I'll be able to do some research soon.

I 've been reading your emails to Mam hoping maybe she might remember a little snippit from the past but I think I have all she remembers - unfortunately!!

Regards Carol.

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