Outlaws (Old West) - Family History & Genealogy Message Board

Re: Stockton Gang

ldnorris1948 — 2013-04-14 01:23:09Z

Hi...I show that Samuel Stockton was born in 1815 in Tennessee and died in about 1857. Samuel was alive during the 1850 census but is not mentioned in the 1860 census. The 1860 census shows Porter was 11, Isaac was 9 Matisha was 7, Samuel was 5 and Amanda was 2 and born in about 1858. Her conception date ties to the 1857 death date I show for Samuel.

Hope this helps.

Linda

Re: Stockton Gang

cys56 — 2013-04-14 00:57:45Z

I'm a member of what are likely cousins of yours: another Stockton family from Hopkins County, TX. I have always wondered how Samuel could have fathered Ike and Porter if the death so many have listed (1850) is correct.

Re: James Copeland/Outlaw

berrys — 2013-02-21 21:17:08Z

SEE THE BOOK ABOUT COPELAND BY PITTS ON GOOGLE BOOKS:

http://books.google.com/books?id=edYvAQAAMAAJ&printsec=f...

Re: James Copeland/Outlaw

DIANEMOSSBAILLARGEON — 2013-02-21 16:48:48Z

I too have a James Copeland in my family history !..James B Copeland to an Indiana Shelton..Indiana later married my GG grand father Virgil M Lawrence..Can anybody help me find a connection to the "outlaw" IF there is one. Thanks Diane aka6996@aol.com

Re: Photo of Butch, Sundance, and Etta Place at South American ranch?

Bambie_R — 2013-02-13 06:34:40Z

I would love to know more about your Etta Place story, the genealogy of it and the history of it. Thanks, Bambie

Re: Diamond Tooth Lil

Palmirast — 2012-12-05 03:32:53Z

yes i live in boise and its true

Re: James Copeland/Outlaw

stephanie_at_scsl — 2012-10-24 03:43:35Z

My grandmother's maiden name is Copeland and she claimes that James Copeland was a great Uncle, or something along those lines. I don't know much about it, I just know she keeps copies of wanted signs that were posted during his time, and that's about it. I'm not positive on its validity, but she is from Alabama, and my mother was born in Mobile, Alabama where his crimes began.

Re: Diamond Tooth 'Lil

berrys — 2012-10-12 20:42:42Z

Honora Ornstein was listed on the 1940 US Census in the Western State Hospital Mental Institution in Seattle, Washington. Her home wsas listed as Steilacoom, Pierce County, Washington. Age 57. Born in Austria.

Social Security Death Index about Honora Ornstein
Name: Honora Ornstein
SSN: 537-50-8701
Last Residence: 98903 Yakima, Yakima, Washington, United States of America
Born: 12 Sep 1882
Died: Jun 1975
State (Year) SSN issued: Washington (1965)

Re: Diamond Tooth 'Lil

kirkmaryornstein — 2012-10-12 16:19:40Z

Hi Robert,
I saw your post about Diamond Tooth Lil (Honora Ornstein) and wanted to reach out. I am currently researching my family history and there are a number of accounts that suggest that Diamond tooth lil was a family member. If you have a moment I would love to hear about any information you might have.

Best regards,

Kirk A. Ornstein

Re: Diamond Tooth 'Lil

kirkmaryornstein — 2012-10-12 15:57:16Z

Hi Michele,

Im currently researching my family history and there are a number of accounts that suggest that Diamond Tooth Lil Honora Ornstein) was a family member. I would love to hear about your research and share with you any information I have.

Best regards,

Kirk A. Ornstein

Re: Diamond Tooth Lil

kirkmaryornstein — 2012-10-12 15:53:39Z

Hello Carrie,

My name is Kirk Ornstein and I've been putting together a history of my family. There are a number of accounts that suggest that Diamond Tooth Lil (Honora Ornstein) was a family member. I would be interested in speaking to you to discuss and try fill in some of the gaps I have in my research and to share any information I might have that could help you in your search.

Best regards,

Kirk A. Ornstein

Re: James Copeland/Outlaw

classic_copeland — 2012-10-09 03:55:18Z

my name is james copeland jr,grandfather james copeland,but different middle name,my brother has only a daughter,darlene how's that?

Re: Stockton Gang

ldnorris1948 — 2012-08-24 03:55:51Z

Hi...So happy to see your message. I am William Porter Stockton's gggrand-daughter. His daugther Carrie Essie May Stockton was my ggrandmother, her daughter Grace Wilmot was my grandmother. I am Davey's cousin Linda. His mom was my dad's oldest sister, Greba (Pat) Page. (: Oh my gosh!!!

Re: Stockton Gang

MyFamilyConnections2 — 2012-08-24 01:38:48Z

Hi,
My husband is also related to William Stockton. I'm doing his genealogy and ran across this post. Imaging our surprise "Stockton Gang".

Would love to know more about the Stockton's and their families.

Sincerely,
Davey & Kimberley Page

Re: Photo of Butch, Sundance, and Etta Place at South American ranch?

kdcruickshank — 2012-06-14 06:27:46Z

I would like to see the photo also. My grandchild is a direct descendant of Etta Place. His grandfather, father and himself all have "Place" as their middle names.

Re: Stockton Gang

ralphdinosaur — 2012-06-02 22:01:59Z

Ike Stockton was born on February 29, 1852 and was killed by Deputy Sheriff J. J. Sullivan in late September, 1881. He is buried in the Animas City cemetery in Durango above Oak Drive on Florida Road. His headstone lists his death date as October 26, 1881 but it is a mistake. Ike had a bar next to Sheriff Brady's sheriff's office in Lincoln, New Mexico and when Billy the Kid shot Brady, Ike brought a hatful of water to the scene. Ike angered Durango, Colorado, and Farmington, New Mexico, and Silverton, Colorado residents when he left Lincoln and renewed his bad habits with a series of robberies, rustlings and reprisal murders. After Stockton was shot by Sullivan seven doctors attended to him, amputating his leg at the hip. Townspeople of Animas city and the new town of Durango hollered across the Animas River "Ike Stockton, go to hell!" He died later that night.

Re: Stockton Gang

ldnorris1948 — 2012-06-02 20:37:33Z

Hi cousin... It is nice to hear I have a cousin related to William Porter Stockton. I sent a reply to your contact number on ancestry.com with my contact information. Hope to be in touch with you soon.

Re: Stockton Gang

ivyvine160 — 2012-06-02 18:29:27Z

I too am a gg-grand-daughter of William Porter Stoctkon. Is it possible to comuniate idnorris1948 off the bosrd? There is a lot I want to ask you and things to tell too. I hope this request is not breaking any rules.

Re: Diamond Tooth 'Lil

intiman1 — 2012-03-14 05:52:49Z

My mother is burried a few feet from Lil. I always wonder about her. I would greatly enjoy an opportunity to learn from you what you might have picked up. I live in Yakima and not far from the cemetery.

thank you

Re: Diamond Tooth 'Lil

intiman1 — 2012-03-14 05:49:56Z

My mother is burried a few feet from Lil and I see her stone every time I visit the cemetery. I had done some superficial research on her a few years back and have been curious ever since. I did a search tonight and wow a whole lot more info. I live in Yakima and would be very pleased to speak from you and learn more.

I do hope to hear back from you soon.

thank you

Re: Stockton Gang

ldnorris1948 — 2012-02-11 09:17:15Z

Hi...I am William Porter Stockton's gg grand-daugther. His parents were Samuel Stockton and Sarah Jane Hickey.

Re: Photo of Butch, Sundance, and Etta Place at South American ranch?

Rachael_Edwards — 2011-07-29 01:48:48Z

do you have a picture of butch and sundace and jonathan josiah meekd he was a super good friend of butch cassidy they was buddie buddie

Re: Photo of Butch, Sundance, and Etta Place at South American ranch?

dbuck7876 — 2011-07-28 19:37:34Z

If there's some way you could make a copy of the photos, with a digital camera, whatever, that would be useful. The only way to give an opinion one wayor the other is to see the photo.

Dan

Re: Con man "Soapy" Smith

Wooshkataan — 2011-07-26 21:16:38Z

My father now deceased, mentioned how his father and uncle were selling newspapers on a corner in Juneau,Alaska in the 1890's. They were chased away by Soapy Smith. Also he was chased out of a mining town on the Kenai Peninsula,(Hope) about 25 miles Southeast of the present city of Anchorage just before he showed up on Skagway.

Re: Photo of Butch, Sundance, and Etta Place at South American ranch?

Rachael_Edwards — 2011-06-15 22:22:12Z

i have a picture of uncle bud meeks he was watchman for the gang and my grandfather and butch cassidy was super good friends they was buddies buddies butch cassidy was a Mormon his dad was bishop its all i know i am looking for a picture of jonathan josiah meeks is who i am looking for a picture of was wondering if you have one

Re: Photo of Butch, Sundance, and Etta Place at South American ranch?

lisaportas — 2011-06-15 17:29:29Z

I too would be interested in the photo. My great grandmother was born Elzetta Place. She was married into the Portas family. I cannot remember the names of all the other brothers and sisters name off hand without looking through our family records. She was Etta James sister. We have a collection of photos 2 of which have "Butch" with her. Right now the family member will not allow the pictures to be copied or removed from the wooded photo album....I would like to know more...

Re: SADIE ASH

esdyer — 2011-06-14 20:10:10Z

Sadie Ash was my Great Grandmother's sister.'Yes Wallace and William were killed by pretty boy Floyd,because he thought(probably correct) they had set Floyd up for the police.
I don't know why they are buried in Raymore, possibly their
Father came from there.
I remember as a young girl, putting flowers on their graves, and Mom repeating the story to us each year.
Sadie would have been Mom's great aunt.My Grandmother remembered visiting the Ash house Many times,and remembered being uneasy around the boys.

Re: SADIE ASH

dritt407 — 2011-06-14 18:22:47Z

Sadie Ash and her two sons William and Wallace are buried in the Raymore, Missouri cemetery along with other Ash family. Check out the find a grave website for them and others in the family. Don't know what the relationship is between them and Raymore. I goggled Wallace Ash and William Ash to see why they would be sharing the same headstone and found references from books that they were killed by Pretty Boy Floyd south of KCK.

Re: Outlaws of the Old West Page 5.

randotya — 2011-06-14 15:20:10Z

Just a note for any interested. Fort Smith is in Arkansas not Arizona as is often mistaken by the abbreviation AR. Arizona is AZ

Re: HENRY PLUMMER

carlalund_1 — 2011-06-11 19:30:24Z

I also am looking for information about Henry. I know of Henry Plummer of Bracken cty Kentucky b. 1861. How is this Henry related to him? My grandfather is John Plummer, son of this Henry. Any information would be helpful. I know that I am related to the outlaw Plummer Boys. Just can't connect the dots.

Re: Murder in 1888-Texas

berrys — 2011-06-01 21:23:49Z

Maybe your James Yancy (Yank) Criswell was caught up in this vigilante mob actions as was one of my kin, John Wesley Smith. Sure sounds like it.

Berry

Excerpts below from:
SEE NO EVIL, SPEAK NO EVIL by Ross McSwain and
THE TEXAS RANGERS AND THE SAN SABA MOB by Ross J. Cox
A few years after the Civil War a large part of Central Texas was partially, to almost completely controlled by vigilante mobs. Settlements were scattered. There were very few lawmen and very few jails, but many army deserters, thieves, robbers and murderers. Many Texas counties, including San Saba, Coryell, Hamilton, Lampasas McCulloch, Brown, Llano and others had to contend with terrorist actions of the mobs. Many of these secret vigilante groups were ranchers who started out to counter the outlawry, and to enforce laws that were not enforced by officers of the state. In the end, most of the mobs and vigilante gangs were all acting under the same unlawful rules. The ranchers began to run off the little operators who strung barbed wire, or too run innocent people out of the area with violence. Eventually everybody was afraid to talk. Nobody knew who was a mob member and who was not. Silence was golden. If you were an innocent citizen who talked about or revealed a mob member's name or an unlawful deed, you were at real risk of assassination. The same rule applied even to mob members. Talk, and you are either killed or your house burned or, maybe, given a three days to get out of the county permanently. If you were told to perjure yourself for the sake of a gang member, you did as told. If you were told to assassinate someone, you obeyed or left the area fast and permanently to avoid retribution.

In 1869-1870 a study was conducted that revealed that 939 murders were committed in one three year period. That number was later revised to 1,035. And from 1865 to 1871 sheriff's reports revealed that 4,425 crimes were committed, with fewer than 600 arrests and very few convictions. Almost everyone was intimidated to a point of refusing to testify against a suspect. Texas Ranger W.J.L. Sullivan reported to his Austin officers at one time that the sheriffs of both San Saba and Mills Counties were members of the mob. This went on until late 1890s before the mobs began to weaken.

One murder and trial that started the decline of the mob was a bushwhacking and murder on July 19, 1889 of an elderly man named James Turner, a farmer and postmaster in Knob Ridge community, one morning while he was working in his field. Turner had been warned to get out of town about two or three months earlier because he had talked to his neighbor, James Daugherty about his dislike of the mob actions, and his belief that William Ford, a deputy sheriff, was a member of the mob. Daugherty then told Ford.

Family members of the murdered farmer testified that they had seen the murder, and murderers, and named Ford and George Trowbridge, along with John Harris who was never charged. Texas Rangers turned over their records to the District Attorney. The case against the two men was moved to Austin, and trial began in February, 1897, eventually ending with a hung jury. Second trial started June 14, 1897 ended in a hung jury. Charges were eventually dropped, but the trial had a lot of publicity and helped to hasten the end of the mobs control.

SMITH, JOHN W. testified in the first FORD and TROWBRIDGE trials for the state. He was in the cattle business with CUNNINGHAM and was told to leave by the Mob. Recognized the voice of AARON MEEKS at the time. He received a threatening letter from DICK SULLIVAN, telling him to "spool his wires" and leave the county. He may be the SMITH mentioned in the Texas court of Criminal Appeals record of the BILL OGLE case.* NOTE: The reference to spooling his wires revealing that the vigilantes were trying to stop fencing of the 'free range' or possibly trying to get rid of sheep men in the county?

Re: Murder in 1888-Texas

berrys — 2011-06-01 16:09:33Z

Below is a 2002 post from Charles Bauch on Ancestry. Might be a lead for you.

"My grandmother was in contact with Sue Diggle about 40-some years ago helping her with the Criswell History. Ms Diggle was researching it for Pastor W.A. Criswell of First Baptist, Dallas. He is descended from one of William's younger brothers as John Y. Sr is his great-grandpa. Anyway, as a result, we received a copy of her painstaking work. It is single-spaced, on onion-skin paper, about one inch thick. It contains everything that was known at the time regarding John Y Criswell, Sr. and his family. It also includes anecdotal history regarding her findings, such as one of the cousins who moved to Llano/San Saba, Texas area was roping calves one day. As he tossed his rope and stepped off the horse to catch the calf, on of the loops settled around his neck. The calf hit the end of the rope and, as the other end was dallied around the saddle horn, it broke this cousins neck, killing him instantly.

Incidentally, My sister and mother went and found the old original cemetary where grandpa Wm was first buried, before his being moved to the State Cemetary. We lived in Fayette County, Texas at the time and located several of the burial plots of Criswells. If you've not been to the State Cemetary to view his marker, it is on a website on-line, but I forget how to get there. Probably through the State of Texas somewhere. If I discover it, I'll get it to you, unless you tell me different.

If you have any questions about something in this history, you may contact my sister, who has the copy in her possession. Her e-mail is: elmtexas@awsomenet.net

Re: Murder in 1888-Texas

jrsanders56 — 2011-06-01 14:26:44Z

Found two newspaper mentions of the murder:

Galveston Daily News August 15th,1888

Brady, Tex., August 11—The Brownwood mail carrier brought news here yesterday evening that on Thursday the body of J. K. Criswell was found near Millburn, this county, on the Brady and Milburn road. He had been shot twice in the face
nnd onco through the head, from the effects of which he died. His team, hitched to a wagon loaded with sorghum cane hay, was found by the roadside, wound up in the
brush, near where his body lay.

It is supposed that he was shot while on the hay and when he fell off the team wandered into the woods. There is no clew lending to the detection of the perpetrator of the fearful deed. This is the seconf murder that has been committed close to Millburn In the past few months. The perpetrator appears to have taken his victim by surprise, as did the murderer of Dorse(?) White, near Millburn.
------------------------------------------------------
San Antonio Daily Light August 17th, 1888

The Brownwood. mail carrier has brought news to Brady that the body of J. G. Criswell has been found near Millburn on the Brady and Milburn road. He had been shot twice in the face, and once through the head.

Murder in 1888-Texas

jax3rd1 — 2011-06-01 00:47:15Z

Need any info on a murder in McCulloch County, Texas. It occurred in 1888 and the victim was James Yancy (Yank) Criswell. He was shot from his wagon while taking a load of sorgham to the mill.

SADIE ASH

esdyer — 2011-04-10 18:16:14Z

SADIE ( HANN) ASH, WAS DIVORCED FROM LENARD ASH.
SHE DIED JUNE 1932 AT 53 YEARS OF AGE.
RUMOR HAS IT THAT TWO OF HER SON WERE KILLED BY PRETTY BOY FLOYD.

Re: Photo of Butch, Sundance, and Etta Place at South American ranch?

hypnobambie — 2011-01-10 18:00:11Z

Would like to talk more, please email me
hypnobambie
gmail.
com

Re: James Copeland/Outlaw

berrys — 2010-11-23 19:35:18Z

The book about him is available through Barnes and Noble for $22.50. Excerpts and various pages from the book can be read online at Google BOOKS at http://books.google.com/books?id=nh0rLXpil9IC&pg=PA244&a...

Re: James Copeland/Outlaw

mallums188 — 2010-11-23 02:28:56Z

There is a book entitled "LIFE AND CONFESSION OF THE NOTED OUTLAW JAMES COPELAND". Written by Dr. J. R. S. Pitts in 1858, who was also the sheriff that hanged Copeland and wrote down his confession. JC would steal anything, from Mobile to the Red River, including livestock and slaves. Signed on to a riverboat in St. Louis, killed the owner and sold the man's boats in New Orleans. KKG, his body was dug up, but skeleton was hung in a drug store in Hattiesburg, then disappeared and, according to legend, was secretly buried by family. This book was written in the prose of that time and JC's confession is quite eloquent. And his confession paints a slightly different picture re: Brown and Harper. Great book from University Press of Mississippi

William Clifton

cindysdaydream — 2010-09-29 15:18:33Z

Looking for a William Clifton.
Thank you,

Re: James Copeland/Outlaw

JanetWallace75 — 2010-08-10 23:28:53Z

Not all Copelands was on the wrong side of the Law my GG Grandfather John Copeland born 1795 in Chesterfield N.C. was a sheriff in Calloway,KY.His parents was Nichols Copeland and Martha Heffington. I am the Granddaughter of Jacob Davis Copeland & Mary Alice Smith

Re: Diamond Tooth 'Lil

lgcdewitt — 2010-07-28 05:38:54Z

Does anyone happen to know the name of Diamond Lil's little brother?

Re: Outlaw Relative - John Marion Custer

efosborn_1 — 2010-07-12 01:03:17Z

Yes I would be interested in your tree feel free to send me a invite. I read the insert from that book and found it very interesting he says the officers was after him It sounds like the army but I dont know. I got some pics today from my husbands mother I am going to put online tomorrow of Andrew Jackson and Margie L Custer, And Susan V Hamilton grandchild of John and Margaret Custer, George Thomas Custer there not the best but better than nothing. Plus i have some pages with info I got when they has a family reunion in 1986 withs lots of info be glad to email you that. ok thanks for the fast reply LIZ

Re: Outlaw Relative - John Marion Custer

ronandmindy — 2010-07-12 00:40:41Z

Greetings,

My name is Ronald Woods and I am related to John Marion Custer. He is my Great Great Grandfather through his daughter Martha Jane Custer. She married William Woods. I have been researching my whole family for a few years off and on. I am not sure of a Custer reunion, but we had a Woods reunion about 2 or 3 years ago. Most of the Woods family that I grew up knowing are all descendants from John Custer as well.

My Grandpa, Robert Woods, and his brothers and sisters, lived with Johnnie Mae Custer for a brief time back in the 1930s.

John Marion Custer is particularly interesting as he was a true cowboy who rode the cattle trails back in the old days. I have a couple of pictures of him in his older years and I have found him in old newspapers from San Antonio. He also submitted a brief telling of his adventures on the cattle drives in a book called "Trail Drivers Of Texas" by J. Marvin Hunter.

My main interest in him at this point is in finding out why he rode under the alias of Bill Wilson. He says in his story that he got into trouble and had to ride under the alias because the law was after him for some time. I have always wanted to know what happened and why he was able to go back to living a normal life and start using his real name again.

I once heard of an old picture of John all duded up with his guns on from his hey day, but have never seen it.

Anyway it is nice to hear from you and check out my tree as well. I usually keep it set to private, but if you are interested I will unlock it for a time and maybe you can find some neat things in there.

Ronald Woods Jr.

Re: Outlaw Relative - John Marion Custer

efosborn_1 — 2010-07-11 22:11:35Z

Hello I am researching my husbands family also great grandfather John Marion Custer 1865 we come from his first child Lottie B Custer I have a picture of John on my ancestry page Landreth,Osborn,Custer if any of this can help feel free to take a look. I was also trying to find out if there is still a family reunion in Texas for this family branch if you know will you let me know. How are you related to John M Custer? Thank You Liz

Re: Altagracia and Angel Otero - Prisoners at the Yuma Territorial Prison

cemcrawler — 2009-09-04 22:01:48Z

The Arizona Republican
Phoenix, Arizona
June 13, 1899

GUILTY OF MURDER

Conviction of Angel Otero at Tombstone
Yesterday

Tombstone, Ariz.,June 12 (Spec-
ial.)—In the case of Angel Otero
charged with the killing of Gregorio
Cazares, the jury after being out forty
onehours returned a verdict this afternoon,
finding the defendant guilty
of murder in the first degree and fixing
the penalty at life imprisonment.

Re: Billy Leroy - Outlaw - Stagecoach Robber -Died in 1881 Lynched by Vigilantes

maryleroy39 — 2009-09-04 19:57:57Z

Berry, I found the book, "A Gathering of Wolves" and it was very interesting. I was interested in finding out about Arthur Pond alias Billy LeRoy. Where he came from and etc. I am still curious but certain I will never know, where he picked up the alias. I am researching LeRoy's from LA to TX to TN. We are at a deadend, so you try everything. I find no connection with this story. Thanks, for sharing the info for research. ML

Thanks for sharing this info with me.

Altagracia and Angel Otero - Prisoners at the Yuma Territorial Prison

theoteros — 2009-08-29 23:32:44Z

Does anyone have info on Altagracia or Angel Otero?
Altagracia was the oldest female prisoner at the Yuma Territorial Prison. She was imprisoned for selling alcohol to the Indians. Angel Otero was imprisoned there to for killing his traveling companion, assisted by his wife.

Appreciate any help.

Re: Billy Leroy - Outlaw - Stagecoach Robber -Died in 1881 Lynched by Vigilantes

msledav — 2009-07-24 01:49:00Z

Thanks for the reply. I will search for the book as suggested. Mary

Re: Billy Leroy - Outlaw - Stagecoach Robber -Died in 1881 Lynched by Vigilantes

berrys — 2009-07-23 15:53:12Z

Miner’s next associate in crime was a farmhand named Arthur Pond. On September 1, 1880, they stole $50 and two mail sacks in Ohio city. On October 14, they held up a stagecoach on the Del Norte route, and hit a jackpot of $4,000. To elude authorities, Miner and Pond changed their names to William A. Morgan and Billy LeRoy. The authorities were not fooled. Pond was soon caught and sentenced to 10 years, although he escaped. He met first with his brother, then Miner, and a new spree began. The Del Norte route was attacked on May 15 and again on May 18, 1881. While Miner was buying supplies with this new money, the Pond brothers were caught and lynched by a mob of angry citizens outside the jail house. The loss of these boys did not derail Miner.

Also see "Bandit Years: A Gathering of Wolves" by Mark Dugan. Profiles four unforgettable outlaws who made the Barlow-Sanderson Overland Mail their special target: Billy LeRoy, Bill Miner, Charley Allison and Hamilton White III. Western Legacy, 1987. Soft cover. $13.50

Re: Diamond Tooth 'Lil

berrys — 2009-07-23 01:19:51Z

Here's a story and picture of 'Lil

http://www.yukon-news.com/opinions/columns/12736/