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333rd Signal Company Troop Carrier Wing

Re: 333rd Signal Company

Posted: 2 Aug 2015 8:04PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Phillips
Thank you. I will try that.
Appreciate your help.

Re: 333rd Signal Company

Posted: 2 Aug 2015 8:16PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Phillips
You would think so. Unfortunately, Oregon Senate Bill 618 (2009), has been cited repeatedly by the county clerk as the reason I cannot access my father's discharge document. This statute makes no provisions for children of deceased veterans to access the document so they are following the current Oregon law.

Re: 333rd Signal Company

Posted: 3 Aug 2015 2:41AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 3 Aug 2015 5:45AM GMT
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ahec/visit.cfm ... http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ahec/index.cfm

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ahec/research.cfm

I was thinking the same thing as what Richard said about the legal aspect, and of course those documents were originally federal documents,...can states make rulings in relation to federal documents ?, from what you're saying, seemingly yes.

Good thing to state the exact relevant legislation.

I'm wondering if anyone has ever challenged that ruling via a Freedom Of Information act
application. ?

Officials everywhere often love to make and apply rules and regulations that turn out not to be valid or enforceable when they are subjected to formal challenge.

American veterans and their spouses and dependents have a legal right to be buried in a military cemetery and to have a military grave marker, and in some cases to receive financial burial benefits, all of which require the production of relevant documentary proof.
http://www.cem.va.gov/burial_benefits/

http://www.benefits.va.gov/compensation/claims-special-buria...

In some cases, such documentary proof might only be available via a veterans discharge documents.

So I'm wondering, if in some cases, the Oregon ruling might effectively be serving to deny veteran's close relatives their legal federal rights in relation to both themselves and or to a deceased veteran relative,...unless perhaps Oregon issues some sort of documentary certificate in such circumstances which enables the veteran's relative to prove the veteran status of the veteran concerned, and their kinship connection to the veteran.

Seemingly not so, because funeral directors in can apply for a veteran's discharge records in Oregon.

Ditto that question in respect of veteran benefits, and especially medical benefits.

I can imagine a scenario in which the relatives of an Oregon veteran, need to access medical benefits on behalf of the veteran, but can't do so because their only source of documentary proof is the veteran's discharge documents, which they may not be able to access, unless Oregon has made a separate provision for doing so in medical situations.

Discharge documents in Oregon can be applied for by the Department of Veterans Affairs or by a County Veterans Service Officer, and presumably in the case of an urgent medical situation they might apply on behalf of the veteran's family if the veteran wasn't able to apply on their own behalf, and if those organisations were involved in a medical situation, hopefully they would act quickly.

Indeed there was a post on here in the past year from the son of a veteran who was in just that situation, not because of an Oregon scenario though.

In his case his veteran father was suffering from dementia but the son couldn't get veteran medical benefits for his father because he had no documentary proof of, or specific knowledge about, his father's military service.

One possible back door method for accessing such records, although it would be a huge longshot, and super likely to be unsuccessful, might be via the veteran's employment records.

Because, if I recall correctly, I think that it was the case that WW2 veterans especially, would sometimes deposit a copy of their discharge documents with their post war employer.

I can't recall the exact reasons for doing that, but I think that it was in connection with employee and employer tax matters and employer financial incentives in connection with the civilian employment of WW2 veterans.

Richard often says that a veteran was given 6 copies of their discharge documents.

Why so many copies. ? Presumably it was because there was a potential future need and use for each of those copies.

One for the veteran to retain. one to deposit with the local authorities in their first post war place of residence, possibly one for employers.

Who else might need a copy. ?

Possibly, their doctor or a hospital in connection with veteran medical benefits, a college or training facility in connection with post war education or training under the G.I. Bill of Rights, a funeral director/military cemetery in respect of burial rights and benefits for a veteran, and or their spouse and or dependents.

If so, then I'm guessing that in the case of some veterans, a copy of their discharge documents might still exist in the records of such organisations.

Have you actually read that law for yourself. ? https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/2009R1/Downloads/MeasureDoc...

Hmmm,..."County Clerk" ? ...might it be that the County Clerk of that county has misunderstood, and or, is misapplying the provisions of that particular law. ?

Officials everywhere have a natural inclination to say, "no not available", in respect of requests for information, and they have a tendency to interpret the provisions of any law that relates to information in such a way as to support their refusal.

It's amazing in some countries how often freedom of information acts are quoted as the legal reason for not releasing information either to the general public or to individual applicants.

Have you tried asking the County Clerks of some other Oregon counties what their policy is in respect of applications for veterans discharge documents of deceased veterans which are made by close family members of the veteran. ?

Re: 333rd Signal Company

Posted: 3 Aug 2015 4:18AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 3 Aug 2015 4:23AM GMT
https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/2009R1/Downloads/MeasureDoc...

Of course the whole of a law has to be read in order to fully understand and to properly comprehend it's exact meaning and intent, and any individual parts or sections of the law have to be considered in relation to and in the context of every other provision and related law which is mentioned in the law that is being read.

One comma or exemption or alteration of apparent meaning of one clause of that law in respect of the related provisions of another law can completely change the apparent meaning and or provision of the law in question.

One American State in recent years discovered that because a comma had been misplaced in the text of a post civil war state law which had been intended to outlaw the keeping of slaves in that state, the effect that the law really had was to make the keeping of slaves in that state legal.

However, it seems to me that section 2 of that law, which is the section that deals specifically with veterans records, ( subject of course to the other provisions of that law ), doesn't make any mention of applications for the discharge records of deceased veterans.

If I've read and understood it correctly, it only appears to refer only to living veterans, because it uses the terms,..."a veteran"...or..."the veteran", and, ( again subject to the other provisions of that law ), I can't see any specific prohibition regarding an application for, or the disclosure of, the discharge records of a deceased veteran.

I can't see any mention of either applications for the discharge records of deceased veterans, nor of any prohibitions on the release of such records upon application.

It says that, and it presumably means in the case of a living veteran, that application can be made by,...the veteran or their spouse,...The Department of Veterans Affairs...a County Veterans Service Officer...a licensed funeral establishment...the legal guardian or the personal representative of the veteran.

Well, what is legally meant by..."the personal representative of the veteran". ?

Obviously, in the case of a living veteran that could mean two things.

1) A person who had been given provable written permission by the veteran to act on behalf of the veteran in regard to an application by the veteran to obtain access to the veteran's discharge documents.

2) The legal representative or legal guardian of a veteran who was unable to act on their own behalf.

However, a deceased person can also have a representative, that would be someone who was their legal executor or administrator.

If I were in your situation, I would try to go around the wall, rather than through it.

I would ignore the County Clerk, his position is already both clear and entrenched.

I would write to the County Attorney of that County, in the form of a Freedom of Information Act communication, and I would ask him to state specifically under which clause/clauses/provision/section/sub section of that act, your application is being refused.
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