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British army uniform from between 1860 and 1900

British army uniform from between 1860 and 1900

Posted: 19 Feb 2015 6:41PM GMT
Classification: Query
Any ideas? Thank-you!
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Re: British army uniform from between 1860 and 1900

Posted: 19 Feb 2015 7:17PM GMT
Classification: Query
The simple plain cuffs date from 1881 and being that pale would make them the white of the infantry, also white collar and piping, but I can’t see any details of the collar badge that would be the key to identifying the actual regiment.
The crossed flags are a signaller’s trade badge.

Re: British army uniform from between 1860 and 1900

Posted: 27 Feb 2015 8:26PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 27 Feb 2015 8:30PM GMT
Hello again! I see you don't just specialise in WW1. :)

So he was a signaller in the infantry pre 1899?

This is possibly George William Thornton from Hull and he was 17 in 1891. His census records show him doing another job in 1891 and he's a seaman in 1901. If he was in the army in 1891, even the reserves, it would be on the census? I'm wondering if you could be in the army and not show up on any record? Would the majority of soldiers from that period not show up on a record, unless they won a medal, then they would? Would he more likely have been a fulltime soldier abroad or part time in the reserves at home, at a guess? Or maybe it's just impossible to say! Can't find anything about his army life sadly.

Re: British army uniform from between 1860 and 1900

Posted: 28 Feb 2015 10:41PM GMT
Classification: Query
So he was a signaller in the infantry pre 1899?

** Without your 1901 census information, that could have been pre-1902 when Khaki Service Dress was introduced.

This is possibly George William Thornton from Hull and he was 17 in 1891.
His census records show him doing another job in 1891 and he's a seaman in 1901.
If he was in the army in 1891, even the reserves, it would be on the census?

** Not necessarily, if he was in the army reserve (i.e. finishing his 12yrs short service term of 5 to 7 yrs with colours and then 7 to 5yrs in army reserve) or a part-time Militia reservist, he would tend to record his civilian job in census; very few other rank soldiers recorded their reserve service in census. Officers of Militia and regular army permanent training staff of militia units were the ones that recorded their militia service in census.

He would only show in census if he serving at Home.

** True, it was only those on RN ships at sea or in a foreign port that were recorded in the England & Wales census of interest to you, members of the army were recorded in census in the country where they were serving and home service included the whole of the UK that would include Scotland, Ireland, Channel Islands, and all Commonwealth and British Protectorates that had held an “approved” census.

I'm wondering if you could be in the army and not show up on any record?
Would the majority of soldiers from that period not show up on a record, unless they won a medal, then they would?

** By any record, I’m assuming you mean online records.

Prior to 1883 records were only preserved for soldiers who were discharged to pension, all others will only be recorded in the Muster Rolls and Pay books of the regiment[s] they served with or if they qualified for one in one the many medal rolls for a campaign, bravery or long service medal, but some soldiers weren’t entitled to any.

After 1883, except for soldiers who died in service, records were preserved for all soldiers who served in the British Army as regular soldiers. For most soldiers who went on to serve in the army during WW1 in any capacity, their pre-war records were placed with the WWI ones, most of which were destroyed in the WW2 bombing. If he changed service to the RN (including its reserves) or the merchant service, any pre-WWI record should be available.

Many militia attestation papers (sometimes more) are also preserved, most are at the National Archives but some are held in regimental archives or country archives (records offices).

Would he more likely have been a fulltime soldier abroad or part time in the reserves at home, at a guess? Or maybe it's just impossible to say!

** Cannot tell, generally, (there will be exceptions, before anyone shouts) the only differences with the uniform of a regular soldier and a militia/reserve soldier would shoulder titles, minor changes to cap badge, collar badges and belt buckle; all details usually too small to pick out even in a high quality picture.


Can't find anything about his army life sadly.

**Where have you looked?

For Muster Rolls and Pay Lists you need to know his regiment, and most are only available at the National Archives, Kew. At present with the exception of some very early ones, filmed by the LDS, and some units from the Anglo Boer War, imaged and transcribed by volunteers and placed on Kevin Asplins web site and/or http://angloboerwar.com/ none are online.

All surviving pre-1883 pensioners’ files, 1883-1913 soldiers’ documents and militia attestations are available at the National Archives, Kew or online via their partner for those records, Findmypast.

As I said earlier, records for anyone who served in the army during WWI will have been merged with their WWI files and all those surviving records are on Ancestry.

There are several records for regular army and militia soldiers named George W or George William Thornton and plain George Thornton; this one may be of interest.

George Thornton, born parish Sculcoates, Hull, attested into the East Yorkshire Regiment August 1894, claiming to be 18yrs 7 months old and was serving with the East Yorkshire Militia before joining the regular army. He gave his next of kin as his father William of 11 Chatham Place, Adelaide Street, Hull.

George was discharged medically unfit in April 1897 after being found to have valvular disease of the heart.

Ref WO 97/4020 Royal Hospital Chelsea: Soldiers Service Documents; 1883-1900: discharge papers arranged by range of surname; Thornton A. - Thornton W.

The record and others available on Findmypast.

Re: British army uniform from between 1860 and 1900

Posted: 3 Mar 2015 11:22PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 7 Mar 2015 6:42PM GMT
Thanks. Interesting. He was in the merchant navy in WW1 so his army records from what you say should still be there. His dad was William and that's the rough area the family lived, but his age is a year or two out. But I shall presume it's him. :)

Re: British army uniform from between 1860 and 1900

Posted: 7 Mar 2015 7:13PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 7 Mar 2015 9:06PM GMT
I've now seen the records. You didn't mention the tattoos! They further push the probability it's him. They also give where he was stationed.
So it seems he moved from Beverley to Preston to Birr to Curragh Camp? Are these well known garrisons?
Would it be quite typical to spend much of your army career then just moving from barracks to barracks at home? To what purpose?
Would it also be typical to just be named as a private, and not have your skills as a signaller listed anywhere? The 15th foot is also mentioned, I assume that's just another name for the East Yorkshire regiment.
There seems to be a number in front of East York Regiment, does it mean anything?
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Re: British army uniform from between 1860 and 1900

Posted: 7 Mar 2015 11:44PM GMT
Classification: Query
I've now seen the records. You didn't mention the tattoos!

***I only glanced at the record to pick out information to identify place of birth and NoK, I had no intention of doing a full transcript.

So it seems he moved from Beverley to Preston to Birr to Curragh Camp? Are these well known garrisons?

***Certainly the names are well known to anyone who has looked into the British military; they all had/have a long military association.
The towns of Beverley and Preston in England still have a significant military connection. The barracks at Birr was destroyed in 1922 and Curragh camp is now the main training centre and military college of the Irish Army.

Would it be quite typical to spend much of your army career then just moving from barracks to barracks at home? To what purpose?

*** For soldiers on a short service enlistment 5 to 7 yrs with the colours and 7 to 5 with the army reserve it was possible to spend the whole of his regular service either at home or overseas, but most would spend at least some time overseas.
Regiments with 2 line battalions or the single battalions of paired regiments alternated between time spent on “home service” and time spent “overseas”. The battalions at home moved around the country about every 2 years or so, with those overseas also moving around every few years to different stations within India, Africa, the West Indies or Canada. The exchange between home service battalions and those overseas took place at much longer intervals in some cases 8 to 10 years.

Here’s the cavalry & infantry deployments for 1896 http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/896GAA.pdf
and wherever British infantry & cavalry troops were stationed support troops of the Royal Artillery and the many Corps would also have a presence.

Would it also be typical to just be named as a private, and not have your skills as a signaller listed anywhere?

***In enlistment and discharge records a soldier is recorded with his rank, any specialist qualifications would have been recorded in regimental papers and within a man’s full record but as that wouldn't affect any pension claim that wasn't saved.

The 15th foot is also mentioned, I assume that's just another name for the East Yorkshire regiment.

***The 15th Foot, 15th Regiment of Foot and 15th (the Yorkshire East Riding) Regiment of Foot were all names that the East Yorkshire Regiment had before 1881, but the old names continued to be used for quite some time.

There seems to be a number in front of East York Regiment, does it mean anything?

*** Yes the numbers relate to the number of the regiment’s battalion, from 1881 for the East York’s and most others, except during WWI & WW2, they had two line battalions, 1st & 2nd , a Militia battalion (3rd) and several Volunteer battalions 1st & 2nd VB’s.

Re: British army uniform from between 1860 and 1900

Posted: 8 Mar 2015 5:53PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 8 Mar 2015 5:59PM GMT
Thanks, great info as ever. I don't know if you looked at the pics, on some it looks like 2, on the other it looks like 3, I don't know if a soldier would move between them.

Does the writing in this part of his file have any obvious meaning? The first column is depot or battalion, the second: promotions, reductions, casualties. One of the words looks like Curragh.



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Re: British army uniform from between 1860 and 1900

Posted: 8 Mar 2015 9:42PM GMT
Classification: Query
I don't know if you looked at the pics, on some it looks like 2, on the other it looks like 3, I don't know if a soldier would move between them.

***No matter what the subject or document it’s always better to attach a larger part or at least state what the document the section comes from; it saves people trying to guess.

The fragment showing the text, “yes, 3/East Yorks Regiment” looks like a response to question 10 on his Attestation asking if he presently belongs to any part of HM Forces. His response was that at the time of his enlistment he was a member of the 3rd (Militia) Battalion of the East Yorkshire Regiment.
Many soldiers first enlisted into the Militia to gain a head start in basic training and see if an army life was for them.

Anywhere there is a 2 before East Yorkshire it refers to the 2nd Battalion, East Yorkshire Regiment that was a line battalion.

A soldier could be moved between line battalions, 1st & 2nd, either on draft or by request. For as soldier to move from Militia (part-time battalion) to a regular battalion would require him to re-attest as in this case. Senior NCOs and some Officers moved from a regular line battalion to become members of the permanent training staff of the Militia; that still applies to all British Reserve units today.

Does the writing in this part of his file have any obvious meaning? The first column is depot or battalion, the second: promotions, reductions, casualties. One of the words looks like Curragh.

***That image looks to be from a Statement of Service and assuming the text is continuous reads:

Authy [Authority]: C.S.O. [Commanding (or Chief) Staff Officer?] Curragh Dist [District]:
Letter No: 19/89/2 dt [dated] 10.4.97

If I recall correctly that refers to his medical discharge that I mentioned in my post of 28 Feb as:

“George was discharged medically unfit in April 1897 after being found to have valvular disease of the heart.”
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