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ww1 naval service abbreviations

ww1 naval service abbreviations

Posted: 15 Jan 2014 5:13PM GMT
Classification: Query
Can someone help me out with these abbreviations please?

My GGrandfather joined the Royal Navy in 1893 and retire in 1922 as CPO and subsequently Lieutenant.
On his service record as rating the following abreviation occur.
SGC, SGT, and CG
I have no idea what SGC represents and would I be correct in the assumption that SGT may be Sereant at Arms perhaps? Does CG represent CAptian of the guard?

On his PO record are the initials QDD, OOD and 2DD against some postings. What do these mean?

He clearly did well for himself . Having started out in life as a fisherman who joined the Royal Navy, he rose through the ranks, received the Medaile Militaire for services rendered during WW1 and retired as a Lieutenant. Not bad Grandad!

Re: ww1 naval service abbreviations

Posted: 22 Jan 2014 10:03PM GMT
Classification: Query
Many thanks for this info. PP

Re: ww1 naval service abbreviations

Posted: 25 Jan 2014 6:05AM GMT
Classification: Query
To echo Infosending1’s comments about attaching a copy of the document to your message, even after looking many RN certificates of Service from a range of periods (columns and headers changed several times), except for some obvious abbreviations that appear in the documents it can still be very difficult to comment on a query such as yours without sight of the original document.

The certificates of service were created by the RN pay office, from the quarterly ships books to record a man’s service for pension purposes and were never intended for public consumption, so apart from the untidy writing and degradation of some characters during microfilming and subsequent copying, sometimes there are notes about qualifications or courses that link on the record with obscure symbols that can add more meat on the barebones of the list of ships, ratings etc. Timeline, dates, ships/shore stations and other information can also help unravel an apparently unknown abbreviation and of course letters are sometimes misread.

It’s like you saying, “initials QDD, OOD and 2DD against some postings”, I have to assume that the initials appear in the rating column but have no idea what went before any such initial appeared or what the “postings” refer too e.g. did it change while attending a course at a depot ship or shore establishment?

Again Infosending has picked up on your statement, “retire in 1922 as CPO and subsequently Lieutenant”, if he “retired” he must have rejoined, or did he transfer to the RFR (Royal Fleet Reserve) on being discharged with 20+ years service and was then “re-activated” for WWI.
I would also question your statement, “On his PO record are the initials QDD, OOD and 2DD against some postings” as his rating as Petty Officer would be on the same “record” (certificate of service) as the very first entry as an Ordinary Seaman.

Rating’s can be substantive (based on rank) e.g. B2C (boy seaman 2nd class, OS (Ordinary Seaman or Ordinary Rating, LS (Leading Seaman or Rating) or they can be non-substantive (a seaman’s trade or occupation) e.g. TM (Trained Man) one who had undergone basic instruction in a trade.

In reality the RN pay office didn’t always follow the headings on the certificates of service forms e.g a Stoker 2nd Class was an Ordinary Seaman rate and Stoker 1st Class was a Able rating, but they are found on certificates of service in the substantive rating column as that was the pay scale header; only the Leading rating is given and then it will be seen as Ldg Sto (Leading Stoker) in the substantive rate column and for almost every rate and trade there will be more than one way of writing it, so it is difficult to create a simple list of abbreviations to fit any certificate.

Some non-substantive ratings had to be re-examined at various periods and could lapse, pay was increased for a number of years at a particular rating and notes will sometimes be found indicating such. You may have already have noticed, that except for ships and associated periods of service etc., timelines are separately vertical within columns and not linked across the page, so some non-substantive rating, badges, character/conduct assessments and remarks have to be carefully linked to the ship timelines.

The above are just a few examples of why sight of the actual document is important. I know you can’t attach the NA’s pdf file to an Ancestry post so would have to print the certificate and then scan it (probably further degrading the quality) and attach it as a jpeg image.


Now to your abbreviations.

SG = Seaman Gunner and from 1871 torpedoes were being fitted in ships and all “junior” seamen gunners were given additional training in torpedo work and a new non-substantive rating was created as: SGT = Seaman Gunner Torpedoman.

Quite what the SGC relates to I cannot be sure; is the gap between the G & T greater than that between the S & G that possibly indicates a missing letter; a 1 perhaps indicating Seaman Gunner 1st Class? Certainly a gunner had to be qualified 1st class before receiving instruction in torpedoes, so timeline will be significant.

CG appears on every certificate of service, usually accompanied by a value in £ (GBP) and indicates a Clothing Gratuity was paid.

However, if CG appears in a rating or sub-rating column then again it’s down to context and timeline, but is likely to mean C (of) G = Captain of Gun, i.e. a rating in charge of a gun mount and he would be a leading seaman rate or above.

QDD = Qualified in Deep Diving, but OOD and 2 DD I’ve not come across in the ratings’ certificates I’ve seen; again context and timeline is likely to be important.

Although OOD can mean Officer of the Deck (or Day) and as a Petty Officer it could indicate he had qualified to carry out the duties of an OOD on a smaller vessel, for a rating I believe the OOD and 2 DD are probably related to diving qualifications, but again without sight of the document it’s impossible to say.



Re Good Conduct Badges & Pay

These will appear in the column with “badges” in the header (sometimes within sub-ratings column) and could be granted (G), deprived (D) or restored (R) are usually written with a date, a maximum of 3 badges that from 1860 to Jan 1919 were awarded for 3, 8 & 13 years service with conduct of VG or above and each badge attracted extra pay of 1d per day (old penny, 12p = 1 shilling (5 new pence); from Feb 1919 pay was increased to 3d per day per badge and from 1946 GCB’s were awarded for 4, 8 & 12 years with pay increased to 4d per day per badge.

Re his achieving the rank of Lieutenant, although rare, even today it is possible for senior rating (Petty Officer [PO] or Chief Petty Officer [CPO] to receive a Commission on merit and like for “other ranks” in the Army gaining commissioned rank during and after WWI, there are many similar examples of seamen receiving a commission in WWI, especially those in the RNVR who served ashore as infantry in France. In the RN a seaman who went through the progression of ratings from the lower deck (Seamen’s domain) to the Quarter Deck (officer territory) is referred to as “he came through the hawsepipe” and a “Hawse Pipe Officer”

Re: ww1 naval service abbreviations

Posted: 6 Apr 2015 9:18AM GMT
Classification: Query
I realise this is an old thread, but I wonder if you could help with the attached. This is my grandfather and I'm struggling with the comments in the remarks column. I've got the "service no longer required" but the first word before "discharged" is giving me particular trouble. I read it first as "joke" but I assume that wasn't commonly used on naval records.

I also assume that either the punishment mentioned in the remarks or the fact that he did less than two years service is the reason for not being eligible for a war gratuity.

For the record he joined the army after this, left in 1931 after my grandmother refused to move to India when he was posted there, joined up again in 1942 when asked and was killed at Anzio on 1944.

Thanks in advance for any help.
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Re: ww1 naval service abbreviations

Posted: 6 Apr 2015 11:35PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 10 Apr 2015 8:42AM GMT
Firstly thank you for posting James’s Certificate of Service, it is always better to see the complete picture rather than trying to comment on just one or more displaced abbreviations, as in the original thread.

The content of the remarks column reads:

NL 16447/18 To be discharged SNLR after punishment awarded him.
CG to be recovered as far as is possible & B to be withdrawn.
5/4/18

NL 166447/18 is possibly the log of HMS Benbow. It would normally record any disciplinary matters, crimes and punishments carried out onboard or reference to transfer shore for any crimes that couldn’t be dealt with locally.

SNLR Services No Longer Required;
CG Clothing Gratuity;
& B I don’t know what the “B” is for, as it comes after clothing gratuity it could be bedding.

Although it’s very likely to have been related to his punishment, being discharged as SNLR is NOT being discharged for misconduct, it was that the RN didn’t need or want him.

You said, “I also assume that either the punishment mentioned in the remarks or the fact that he did less than two years service is the reason for not being eligible for a war gratuity.”

Without service at sea or overseas, the minimum length of qualifying service for a RN War Gratuity was 6 months; periods less than 6 months qualified if part was sea service or overseas.

As he spent 13 months on HMS Benbow and she was present in support, albeit not engaged, at the 2nd Battle of Heligoland 17 Nov 1917; that would have given him qualifying service on two counts.

One disqualification clause to the receipt of a War Gratuity was:

“Ratings discharged for misconduct, or other causes within their own control in the nature of misconduct;”

So it would appear whatever his “crime” was, it was used to remove his War Gratuity entitlement under, “or other causes within their own control in the nature of misconduct”. It's possible at his hearing, he was asked or he told them he didn't want to continue to serve in the Navy and it was a convenient to use that reason.

There are a couple of things about his record that are worthy of note.

He was less than 2 months under 18 when discharged and although at his previous assessment [would have been Dec 1917] his conduct was given as Very Good (VG), his ability [measured at his Boy 1st Class rate] was only Moderate (Mod), which was low. At 17 ½ a B1Class would normally have gained enough skills to be uprated to Ordinary Seaman, that would then put him on track to be rated as Able Seaman at or shortly after the start of his agreed period of Continuous Service at 18.

We don’t know what his “naval crime” was and although records of Naval Courts Marshal are held at the National Archives, I can’t see a boy, who could ask to leave anytime before the start of his [adult] continuous service, being court marshalled, so I suspect the only place, if any you will find mention of his crime & punishment would be in the ship’s log.

The logs of HMS Benbow (catalogued without the HMS prefix) are in document series ADM 53 at the National Archives, Kew, none are available online.
To see what’s available from http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ > advance search
Enter Benbow, reference ADM 53, add year of interest.

As I said earlier, he wasn’t actually discharged for misconduct so it wouldn’t have any significant effect on his future employment.

Being under 18 and recorded as being in the RN, he wouldn’t be liable for conscription when first discharged and even when he became 18, under the terms of the Military Service Act, it would have been his responsibility to inform the authorities he was no longer in the RN and eligible for call up.

Edit: for Courts Marshal and court-marshalled read Courts Martial and court-martialled; Senior Moment!

Re: ww1 naval service abbreviations

Posted: 7 Apr 2015 6:31AM GMT
Classification: Query
Thank you both very much indeed! Mum will be amused at this development I think.

We're not exactly sure when he joined the Army, but infosending is correct - he didn't join during the War as he was at his factory job afterwards. Sorry for the confusion.

The earliest army record I have so far is 1923; that service is (probably next) on my to-do list.

Once again, many thanks for your time and effort.
Dave

Re: ww1 naval service abbreviations

Posted: 7 Apr 2015 5:41PM GMT
Classification: Query
Interesting he went back to “his factory job” after being discharged from the RN.

Thinking of the possible uses of stamped out metal parts, from washers, metal labels, clips and brackets to bowls, tin hats, parts for vehicles and even weapon triggers, his factory job was possibly a reserved occupation. There were certainly many of the reserved trades and manufacturers that his job description would fit into (Published in the Times 22 Nov 1915 & 20 Dec 1915) that would have exempted him from conscription.

Re service from 1923 and again in WWII.

Any service record will still be with the Mod and there are forms to fill in and proof of death would normally be required, but as he died in service his CWGC’s entry will be accepted.
See https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-re...

If you haven’t already seen it you can get his WWII service details from:

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2678376/NIBLETT,%...

His number was near the end of the block originally allocated to the Royal Corps of Signals back in 1920 (see below) that would appear to indicate it was issued during WW2 and wasn’t connected with any previous service.

The whole of the British Army was renumbered with 7-digit numbers in 1920, with blocks of numbers allocated to various regiments and corps (see http://16dli.awardspace.com/page112.html ).

If he served in 1923 and you have or can find anything about the regiment or a 7-digit number from then, that may help if his early service isn’t with his WW2 records.

Re: ww1 naval service abbreviations

Posted: 10 Apr 2015 7:33AM GMT
Classification: Query
Can't thank you enough Jeff, plenty to look up there! I have a couple of other family members to interrogate as well.

Thanks again,
Dave

Re: ww1 naval service abbreviations

Posted: 10 Apr 2015 8:45AM GMT
Classification: Query
You’re welcome, just pleased I was of some help.

Sorry about the silly mistake in my original message, Marshal and marshalled for Martial & marshalled; senior moment!

Re: ww1 naval service abbreviations

Posted: 12 May 2015 12:32PM GMT
Classification: Query
I'll let you off your senior moment Jeff!!

I thought the ship's logs may be of interest - as James' naval record says he served to 15th April but in the remarks column the 5th April is mentioned I splashed out on the whole month. I've attached the 4th/5th and 14th/15th but he isn't mentioned by name anywhere.

Best regards
Dave
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