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Great-grandfather in British Merchant Navy Before 1863

Great-grandfather in British Merchant Navy Before 1863

Posted: 18 Dec 2014 1:20PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Smith
Hello,

I am seeking information about my great-grandfather's experience in the British Merchant Navy prior to 1863 (by then, he was married and living in London).

Richard Smith (born 1834) was nine when he joined the navy (Mom told me this years ago). I have since learned that boys that young were not accepted into the British Navy, but instead went into the Merchant Navy. As well, evidently many of these boys came from poor circumstances (workhouses, for example).

What I know about him:

..He learned his shoemaker trade in the navy,
..His ship went to the Crimea.
..A ship he was on also stopped slave ships.

What I'd like to know:

..Where were most of these boys from in England?
..How many shoemakers were on board each ship? Would he have been one of several apprentices?
..Is there a list of apprentices who served in the Merchant Navy?.
..Would he have received a pension when he left?
..Was leaving the Merchant Navy easy, or would he have had to buy his way out?

Any information you can provide about him and/or the life of a boy in the Merchant Navy at this time would be most helpful. Thanks.

Cheers,
Marianne


Re: Great-grandfather in British Merchant Navy Before 1863

Posted: 25 Jan 2015 6:47PM GMT
Classification: Query
I think some basic history is needed here.There was no such thing as "The Merchant Navy" in 1843. This was a title awarded to the commercial shipping of Great Britain by George Vth to acknowledge the contribution made by the merchant fleet during WW1. I do not know the youngest age boys might be taken into the Royal Navy at this time, but it was about 12-13 for Cadets so was probably similar for lower ranks. If he went to sea in a commercial ship he would have been employed by a particular company/owner. Generally speaking after the Maritime Marine Act 1844 the only permanent employees on a ship would be the Master, Mate and Apprentices Duly Indentured. All other crew would be taken on purely for one voyage at a time under "Agreement with Crew" and paid off at the end of the voyage. If they went back it would be a new contract just for another voyage - they were perfectly free to take work on another ship which needed crew and would take them.I will not be dogmatic but I do not think commercial ships would have carried a shoemaker. Possibly some of the bigger passenger liners may have carried someone to fix shoes for 1st class passengers.but if he was taught it as a trade it is possible it was taught in the Royal Navy although it is not a training I know of, but I am pretty sure he would not have learned such a trade in a Merchant Ship.. If you want lists of Apprentices you will need to look at all the different shipping companies - I once helped identify 208 house flags so that would be quite a job! It is just possible that some of the bigger companies gave pensions to Officers who had served for many years but I would doubt very much whether a shoemaker who sailed just a few voyages would have had anything - especially as he would have sailed under "Agreement with Crew" - As there was no such thing as "The Merchant Navy" he could not have "left" it - easy or not, but as explained employed under Agreement with Crew he would have been free to do anything else at the end of every voyage - if it suited and he had something else to do. I am not sure what you mean by "His ship went to the Crimea" - which ship? The Crimea is a very busy sea area and a very large number of ships footle around the Black Sea. It is also unlikely that he was ever on a ship which "stopped slave ships" - only Royal Navy ships would have done such a thing but only to ships flying their own flag and slavery was abolished in the British Empire in 1833 so there would be no British slave ships to stop, A Royal Navy ship stopping a ship, slaver or not, sailing under a foreign flag would be an act of piracy.
As far as where the boys came from - there is a tradition that boys sometimes "ran away to sea" and I think some did, although whether they continued after the first bout of sea-sickness might be questioned. As the employing would be done by the Master any boy would have to be reasonably close to a port area to ask for employment when a ship came in. Many boys went to sea because they lived in these areas and fathers, uncles, brothers were already at sea and put a word in for them.
The main "sea-going" areas were. the East Coast of Scotland (Peterhead, Aberdeen, Leith) and England (Tyneside, North and South Shields), Hartlepool, Whitby, Hull and Grimsby but the North Sea Coast was particularly famous for deep-sea fishing fleets, particularly Hull. The Thames and the Port of London, the ports of NE Kent, Dover, Folkestone carried the cross-channel routes, Southampton was of little importance until the size of the passenger ships meant they were too big for Liverpool and could take advantage of the unique phenomenon of four tides a day which Southampton has. Bristol was a very important sea-port as was South Wales, (Cardiff, Swansea and Barry) and further north Liverpool and Glasgow. Liverpool was the most important emigrant port for North America for much of the latter part of the 19th century. The sea-going communities in these areas were a very distinct grouping and most of the boys who went to sea would come from those communities. However all that being said - it sounds more like Royal Navy to me - especially if he had a particular trade and personally I would start there. Hope some of this is useful to you.

Re: Great-grandfather in British Merchant Navy Before 1863

Posted: 25 Jan 2015 7:12PM GMT
Classification: Query
I think some basic sentence and paragraph spacing is needed here.

In your next treatise, consider including some white space, that might not make your prose any less pompous, but it might make it a bit more visually comprehensible.

Re: Great-grandfather in British Merchant Navy Before 1863

Posted: 26 Jan 2015 6:35PM GMT
Classification: Query
I want to thank you for all the work you put into this message. It is clear that you are familiar with the subject.

I was told by someone else that the British Navy would not have accepted boys as young as nine (he would have been 9 in 1843). This is why I thought of the Merchant Navy. However, your information seems to dispute that.

My info on my great-grandfather comes from my mother from many years ago. I had documented it at the time. "Went to Crimea" and "stopped slave ships" was directly from her. While I can believe the Crimea story, based on what you have said, the "slave ships" reference might not be accurate. Nonetheless, I know for sure he learned his shoemaker's trade in the "Navy" (whichever one) and that he joined as a boy (I am willing to believe the age could be out by a few years).

Thanks for including the main areas for seafaring ports. This should also help me in my genealogy research. I am taking your advice and going back to the British Navy records (which is what he joined according to my Mom) albeit with less emphasis on the nine years of age story.

Thanks again for your help.

Marianne

p.s. I'm an English teacher, so even without the paragraph breaks, I understood everything.

Re: Great-grandfather in British Merchant Navy Before 1863

Posted: 26 Jan 2015 11:43PM GMT
Classification: Query
Marianne,
Trying to give a potted overview of a vast subject is not the simplest thing but I usually work on the assumption that people who can put an intelligent question can get the gist. Pompous asses exist everywhere - best to assume they had ein schlechtes Kinderzimmer and leave it at that.

I am glad what I said helped a bit. I have had another thought. "Went to Crimea" might actually be a reference to the Crimean War - 1853-1856 and this would point again to Royal Navy. The dates would fit and the Royal Navy supported, and I believe transported, the troops. I know a retired Admiral who is also a very good historian and it is possible I may see him at a Meeting in the next few weeks. If you like I could ask if there was such a thing as a training as a shoemaker in the Royal Navy at that date and at what age apprentices would have been taken on and if there was any policy of taking boys from the workhouse. It is not exactly his field - he is mainly a medical historian but he is very knowledgeable about the RN in general.
Another point. The areas in which one found (sadly mostly past tense!) "sea-going communities" that I mentioned were to do with the Merchant Navy. The Royal Navy Dockyards were quite different and government departments. The best known were Chatham, (Kent), Portsmouth (Hampshire), and Plymouth (Cornwall) and Rosyth in Scotland. There was also a very old established Royal Dockyard at Deptford, Peter the Great came there to learn how to build boats in the early 18th century and rented a house from Samuel Pepys - but he and his party were so badly behaved that the Housekeeper said she was going to resign - quite a to-do!! However Deptford is well up the Thames. west of Greenwich, and as ships got bigger they moved further downstream and I am not sure if Deptford was still in full use at your date.
I suppose you could say I am "familiar" with the subject - I belong to the rapidly dwindling band of "sea-going communities" My father was a Master Mariner, My poor Mother had five children all born in different parts of the world - she once told me she spent her 14th wedding anniversary settling into her 10th "home". I picked up quite a lot about the Crimea as my father was in the Black Sea during the Russian Revolution (don't ask me why!!) and I still have a very nice letter from a White Russian General thanking him for allowing him and his officers to spend the night on the ship - because they thought the Reds were after them - they were, but not the General himself, simply his ammunition train parked up in the sidings which they just drove off with. I was educated in a school for the children of Merchant Seamen and we simply took it for granted that the next kid had come from China, India or wherever. I suppose by today's standards we were a slightly odd lot but there was a wonderful community spirit. If you have any other specific points you think I could help with, do come back and if I get anything from my Admiral I'll be in touch. Happy hunting.

Re: Great-grandfather in British Merchant Navy Before 1863

Posted: 27 Jan 2015 11:44PM GMT
Classification: Query
Thank you very much for your help with this. Yes, I would be most grateful if you spoke to your connection in the Navy.

Re: a workhouse - I really don't know. Maybe he was just lured by the thrill of the sea. I really don't know.

I think there might be a connection to the Norfolk area. I mention this only because my grandfather (his son) kept up a close connection to people from Norfolk who lived in an area in Ontario (Canada) that would have been about an hour by train. It never seemed to make sense to me. I am only speculating (genealogy is often a leap of faith), but perhaps there is a family connection to Norfolk. What do you think?

I also like your story about Deptford. Considering Richard Sr.'s children were born in London, perhaps this is where he ended his career.

Btw: my husband was ex-military. We have children who were born in two different areas of Canada, so I understand your upbringing.. My sympathies to your mother. Though moving offers a fresh start, it can be quite stressful.

I am not sure I'll ever get the answers I'm seeking, but I really do appreciate your thoughtful replies.

Cheers,
Marianne

Re: Great-grandfather in British Merchant Navy Before 1863

Posted: 25 Mar 2015 4:46PM GMT
Classification: Query
Marianne,
I have not forgotten your query but I haven't seen "the Admiral" at any Meetings since I wrote. I did ask the organisation we both belong to for his email address, which they are not allowed to give me because of the Data Protection Act, but they pointed out I could get his "land" address from the Membership Book - much more useful if I want to throw a bomb over his fence I suppose!! Anyway I did write to him, "snail mail" but have received no answer. However I suspect this is not just lack of manners I have a feeling that he was far from well the last time I saw him. I will ask around but if I cannot make contact I have not forgotten and if I have any other bright ideas I will let you know. Maybe you have had more luck from somewhere else? Happy Hunting anyway.

Re: Great-grandfather in British Merchant Navy Before 1863

Posted: 27 Mar 2015 7:37PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 27 Mar 2015 7:37PM GMT
Hi there.

Thank you for your reply. Unfortunately, I have not made any progress with my great-grandfather. With a name like Richard Smith, I feel like I'm searching for a needle in a haystack; however, I do know that patience is necessary when researching your family. (I once waited over a year-and-a-half for a reply to a query). Nonetheless, I am confident that one day, I will manage to find the right key to unlocking this mystery with the help of people like you. I am very grateful for the time and effort you are putting into this, and I look forward to hearing from you again soon.

Cheers,
Marianne
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