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Help identify military regimental insignia?

Help identify military regimental insignia?

Posted: 5 Jan 2015 12:22AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 5 Jan 2015 1:27PM GMT
Hello. Wondering if anyone can help me identify which British regiment the attached insignia belonged to between 1879 and 1892? I understand several regiments have used the St. George and Dragon motif at various times. Thanks for any pointers.
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Re: Help identify military regimental insignia?

Posted: 7 Jan 2015 4:32AM GMT
Classification: Query
You said, “I understand several regiments have used the St. George and Dragon motif at various times.”
That’s not quite true, it’s only the successor regiments of the 5th Regiment of Foot that have the right to display that emblem (referred to as their “ancient badge”) on their Regimental Colours and other regimental items.

The 5th Regiment of Foot was one of the 6 “old” Corps, representing the 6 pre-Jacobean regiments, that were granted permission to use the named emblems of their 'ancient badges' on Regimental Colours, etc... In addition to the 1st (or Royal) Regiment of Foot that already had Royal approved Colours, the others regiments and the emblems displayed in the centre of their Colours were:

The 2nd Regiment of Foot, later the Queen’s West Surrey Regiment – The Paschal Lamb;

The 3rd Regiment of Foot, or The Buffs, later the Buffs (East Kent Regiment) – The Dragon;

The 4th Regiment of Foot, later the King’s Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) – The Lion of England;

The 5th Regiment of Foot, later the Northumberland Fusiliers – St George slaying the Dragon;

The 6th Regiment of Foot, later the Royal Warwickshire Regiment – The Antelope.

In all cases it’s only their present day successor regiments (by amalgamations and renaming) that are permitted to use those exact emblems.

As you’ve quoted dates of “1879 and 1892” that covers the major reforms of 1881, the swagger stick would have belonged to someone who had served with the Northumberland Fusiliers, pre 1881 known as the 5th Regiment of Foot (Northumberland Fusiliers).

Echoing infosending’s request, to possibly assist further and to date the stick you need to give all details (letters, symbols and numbers) found on the main silverwork and the 3 bands.

Re: Help identify military regimental insignia?

Posted: 7 Jan 2015 3:31PM GMT
Classification: Query
Thank you both for the replies. I too had figured it was the Northumberland Fusiliers. The stick cap bears the name of my husband's relative to whom the stick belonged...Frederick William Mortimer...and the date November 29 1879. The bands bear the following inscriptions: Lieut 5 January 1881; Capt. 13 May 1885; Honorary Member May 29 1892. The stick itself appears to be made of some sort of horn...it is quite transculent and unlike two sticks he received when serving with the London Scottish earlier in his career. Given the dates and the stick material would I be correct in thinking he served in the Boer War?

Re: Help identify military regimental insignia?

Posted: 8 Jan 2015 12:06AM GMT
Classification: Military
Edited: 8 Jan 2015 1:31PM GMT
My apologies for my previous incomplete and misleading reply, I had only considered regular army regiments and neglected look-up details of the part-time volunteer and militia regiments; your response mentioning the “London Scottish” highlighted my omission.

After further checks there was a Volunteer Corps (St George's Hanover Square Volunteers) that had historically used the St. George & Dragon emblem and it continued to be used by its successor Corps.

The very large number of Volunteer Rifle Corps and the fact that as Rifle Corps many units wore their badges on the cross-belt (aka pouch-belts) rather than on their head-dress, there is no description in Kipling & King’s Head-Dress Badges of the British Army (Vol 1) of a badge associated with the St George's Hanover Square Volunteers or a successor Corps, until the post 1908 9th battalion of the London Regiment.
However I have found an image of a very fine example of the cross-belt badge of its successor the 11th Middlesex (St George’s) Rifle Volunteer Corps as worn 1860-1880; it’s just over halfway down the page at http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=9799

The St George’s emblem continued to be used by successor Corps within their helmet plates (e.g. 1st Middlesex (Victoria and St Georges) Rifle Volunteer Corps), see http://www.britisharmybadges.com/shop.php?c=2 3rd image down; that badge is very similar to that of the 9th Battalion, The London Regiment of 1908 described in Kipling & King.

Using the name and dates you gave a search of the London Gazette at https://www.thegazette.co.uk/ (not very user friendly) revealed:

London Gazette 28 November 1879, Issue 24787, page 6943

11th Middlesex Corps, Frederick William Mortimer, Gent, to be Second Lieutenant (Supernumerary). Dated 29th November 1879.

London Gazette 4 January 1881, Issue 24920, page 4

6th (late 11th) Middlesex Corps, Second Lieutenant Frederick William Mortimer to be Lieutenant.

London Gazette 12 May 1885, Issue 24569, page 2163

Rifle, 6th Middlesex (St George’s) Lieutenant Frederick William Mortimer to be Captain, Dated 13 May 1885.

London Gazette 27 May 1892, Issue 26292, page 3144

6th Middlesex (St George’s), Captain F. W. Mortimer resigns his Commission. Dated 28th May 1892

You can now see why infosending requested the information about the writing on the stick.

I don’t believe any Volunteer Corps served in the 1st Anglo Boer War (1880-1881) and as he resigned his Commission in 1892, it’s unlikely he took up service with them in the 2nd Anglo Boer War (1899-1902). You should search the British Army Medal Rolls on Ancestry to see if he ever served in South Africa.

If you mentioned the Boer War because you have been unable to find him in the 1901 Census, there is a notice in a 1900 London Gazette about the estate of a Frederick William Mortimer who died 2nd August 1900.

London Gazette 16 October 1900, Issue 27238, page 6375.


I’ve added this background to show the previous Corps titles.

The London Scottish was originally raised in 1859 with the name the London Scottish Rifle Volunteer Corps, in 1860 it was renamed the 15th Middlesex (London Scottish) Rifle Volunteer Corps and in September 1880 was renumbered the 7th Middlesex (London Scottish) Rifle Volunteer Corps.

Also in 1859 another Rifle Volunteer Corps was raised in the Parish of St George Hanover Square and based on the original 1794 antecedent regiment (St George's Hanover Square Volunteers) it was named St George’s Rifles, 11th Middlesex Rifle Volunteer Corps, a year later it was renamed the 11th Middlesex (St George’s) Rifle Volunteer Corps, in September 1880 it became the 6th Middlesex (St Georges) Rifle Volunteer Corps.
In June 1892 the Corps was amalgamated with the 1st Middlesex (Victoria) Rifle Volunteer Corps to become the 1st Middlesex (Victoria and St Georges) Rifle Volunteer Corps.

To complete the picture of these two VRC’s.

When the Territorial Force was created in 1908 as both the above two Corps came within the boundary of the County of London (est. 1889), they became the 14th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (London Scottish) and the 9th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (Queen Victoria’s Rifles).

Re: Help identify military regimental insignia?

Posted: 8 Jan 2015 1:05AM GMT
Classification: Query
My goodness! What a tremendous research effort-thank you very much. The St. George's Rifles makes perfect sense - Frederick was born in the district of St. George, Hanover Square and his family continued to live their for quite some time. I was aware that he died in 1900...the National Probate Calendar shows that probate was granted to William Forster, woollen draper and to Frederick Charles Fisher, surgeon. The latter was the husband of his sister Clara...and my husband's maternal great grandfather. As neither Frederick nor his brother Henry had children, his sister Clara must have inherited many of his possessions-and hence they came to my husband. Interesting family...his father was of the Meyer & Mortimer military outfitters (Now located Savile Row)..and his grandfather Thomas Jackson Mortimer, one of the famed Mortimer gunsmiths. Thank you again for your help - very much appreciated.
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