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Pioniers

Posted: 16 Sep 2014 8:55PM GMT
Classification: Query

I would be interested in your thoughts to the Pioniers, of which my g grandfather and grandfather were part of. My g grandfather would have been serving in the 1860's - 1870's and my grandfather about the 1880's.

I believe that 1871 would have marked the difference between being from Herzogtum-Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha or Thueringen because of the shift of the capitol from Ostpreussen to Berlin.

They were both born in Grossfahner, Herzogtum Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha. From what I have read and in an attempt to understand, Herzogtum Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha (and for that matter Sachsen/Saxony) did not support much of anything the Prussians stood for, including their military.

I have photo's of both my g grandfather and grandfather in what must have been a normal 'send the photo home' photograph. No matter how much I enlarge them, there are no standout identification items to narrow down the search to their units.

I would assume neither were military hero's or the family lore would have been passed down.

So... if Herzogtum Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha did not have an army, then who would they have been assigned to and served their time with? Castle was kept in the conversation for my grandfather.

Regards, Bob~~

Re: Pioniers

Posted: 17 Sep 2014 5:35AM GMT
Classification: Query
Probably Saxony or Thuringia if after 1870. They really didn't have much choice with the Prussians after the German Unification. Some reordering of the Thuringian states occurred during the German Mediatisation from 1795–1814, and the territory was included within the Napoleonic Confederation of the Rhine organized in 1806. The 1815 Congress of Vienna confirmed these changes and the Thuringian states' inclusion in the German Confederation; the Kingdom of Prussia also acquired some Thuringian territory and administered it within the Province of Saxony. The Thuringian duchies which became part of the German Empire in 1871 during the Prussian-led unification of Germany were Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach, Saxe-Meiningen, Saxe-Altenburg, Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and the two principalities of Reuss Elder Line and Reuss Younger Line.

Re: Pioniers

Posted: 12 Oct 2014 12:01PM GMT
Classification: Query
Bob
I am not sure if your question about our thoughts is still up to date,because I see no reaction of the post that ycaso 77 made. If it is,please tell me what your grandfather could have meant, when he kept "CASTLE" in the conversation. Is it for sure, that he was a Pionier?
As you wrote in one of your posts, slight shifts of spellings and pronunciation always occur.
Klaus

Re: Pioniers

Posted: 17 Oct 2014 12:33PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hello Klaus

Yes, both my grandfather and great grandfather were in the Pionier Corps. Not at the same time though!

My original question was this. They lived in the village of Grossfahner, Herzogtum Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha, which was a duchy under control of Sachsen. Sachsen and Prussia, from what I have read did not see eye to eye in much of anything when it came to life, living and the Army or Navy.

Both my grandfather and great grandfather at one time in their military careers were headquartered in Kassel or Cassel. Unless I am mistaken, Kassel or Cassel was part of Prussia from the 1860's through 1871, when Deutschland (as a country) became official.

I do not understand how men under the control of Sachsen would be in Cassel, most likely under Prussian Army authority.

Does my question have merit or have I had too much time to wonder?

Robert Lipprandt
(Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA)

Re: Pioniers

Posted: 17 Oct 2014 8:50PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hallo Robert
It is not so easy for me to explain you in english, what the city of Kassel in state of Hessen has to do with the Duchy of Saxe –Coburg-Gotha and the military, so for better understanding about the history you should first read the info about the Duchy of Saxe –Coburg-Gotha on this page, especially about the military. The page is available in English too.

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/herzogtum_sachsen-cobur...

The headquarters of the 11th army corps of the Royal Prussian Army (XI Armee Corps) was stationed in Kassel, (Cassel) as I could see in the ranking list of the Royal Prussian Army, for the year 1873. Parts of this army corps have been different units, also the 22.Division,which was also stationed in Cassel. Part of this Division was the 6th Thüringische Landwehr Regiment Nr.95 (means it was the 6th Thüringisches Landwehr Regiment, but the 95th Prussian Landwehr Regiment). The 1.Bataillon of this Regiment was not stationed in Cassel, it was stationed in Gotha, which is not so far away from Großfahner, where your grandfather lived.
You see the connection to Cassel? Your grandfathers could have been soldiers in this 1.Bataillon.
The point that does not fit is, that you say, that both served as pioneers. The 6th Thüringische Landwehr Regiment Nr.95 was not a Pionier Regiment.
But,another unit of the 11th army corps in Cassel was the Hessische Pionier Bataillon Nr.11, stationed in the city of Mainz, at the river Rhine.The Ranking list from 1873 mentions only Mainz, but by googleing in found, that this Bataillon was not just stationed in Mainz, but in Mainz, township KASTEL.
You see the possible connection, Your grandpa kept "CASTLE" in the conversation. CASTLE?,Cassel?,KASTEL? As you wrote, slight shifts of spellings and pronunciation always occur. Kastel would fit with the info of the Pioneers.
A lot of open questions.
I attached parts of the ranking list of 1873 and an old map of Mainz-Kastel from 1893
Klaus
Attachments:

Re: Pioniers

Posted: 18 Oct 2014 10:56AM GMT
Classification: Query
Robert,
I will continue the things that ycaso and Klaus said.
1. The Kingdom of Saxony was not identical to the 7 "thuringian states" (Saxe-Weimar ...).
2. The thuringian states were so small that that they could not have an army. Some were so small, that they even could not have one battaillon.
After 1815 until 1866 they should some common battaillons together with other very small german states. Those battaillons should be send to some fortresses (a french attack was feared).
After 1866 the soldiers had to join the prussian army (there was a military convention between Prussia and the small states in northern Germany - and in the medium parts of Germany). Three regiments were formed in Thüringen.This went on in 1871.
Hans-Peter

Re: Pioniers

Posted: 19 Oct 2014 11:53AM GMT
Classification: Query
Yes, information is now beginning to make sense in my mind, especially the time of these events.

I also did not think of the size of the duchies (Herzogtums) population to form their own military battalions.

In America, my great grandfather was a skilled Zimmerman. He built three dairy farms for his three sons in 1890's. The first farm that he built still stands today and is being used with his original construction methods. I think he knew how to put up a building!

Somewhere in old photographs that I had inherited from my grandfathers things, are two maybe three photographs of soldiers with the number 11 on the epaulette. By epaulette, I mean the shoulder board, I am not sure what the Deutches wort for English epaulette is.

When I find the photographs, I will post them.

Robert
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