thanks for all the info genee - ive a lot to go on now ! maybe i can find out now where they lived - the fact that george went with his mum when he was 18 fits exactly as i coulnt find then on the census here - i know that george was born in middleton manchester , i THINK his father was also out in USA too at some stage , they are all difficult to find on the census here , george had 2 brothers james and john but there is little info on them here