Hi! I am the author of the Gardiner website and you are quite right that I knew nothing of the pre-1811 children. Now, thanks to this forum and in particular, thanks to Shirley I have enough info to tie things together. I had searched in vain for the Gardiner-James wedding.

James was the son of Edward Gardiner of Goodrich / Whitchurch Herefordshire and his mistress, latter wife, Mary Hodges. He is therefore the James who died in 1837 as there is (it seems) a record of his burial that actually states the names of his parents as Edwd and Mary. I am obliged for the confirmation of this given above - FamilySearch gives no location or source. He is said to have lived in a mill before moving to Liverpool.

He was the father of Henry – baptism entry from Goodrich gives parents as James and Sarah.

James Gardiner jnr (later of Abercrombie Square) was Henry’s brother (no known baptism but birth in Goodrich and witnessed Henry’s will). He stated that his father was a baker (later a ‘merchant’) called James

James was married to Sarah James in Monmouthshire (not far from Goodrich). James and Sarah James were recorded as having children in Liverpool called Sam and Harriet.

Sarah and Mary Martin (grandchildren of James and Sarah James) are found at the house of Samuel and Sarah in 1861 as nieces. Now, crucially, Sarah, sister of Samuel, was the aunt of Alicia, James junior’s daughter as is shown by the 1901 census for Lancaster.

So there we are!

The Methodist thing is a little puzzling - the photo date of 1854 is also odd (could it be his son James?) as children were baptised in CoE churches and his sons show no Methodist tendencies.

Any ideas anyone?

I will write it all up fully asap.

David