My great grandfather John GORSCHE and great grandmother, Barbara THOMAS (possibly Tomec) were Ruthenians who spoke a form of Ukrainian (as described in their 1920 US census information), who immigrated to the US in 1856 and 1881 respectively. John GORSCHE was a peddler in Iowa for several years (until he had enough money to buy a farm), and may have come from a peddling tradition in Krain, Austria. They got married in 1883 and raised a large family in Iowa and were practicing Roman Catholics.
I have not determined the exact village they came from, but it is likely in White Carniola, most likely Semitsch, Krain (now Semic, Slovenia) or Tschernembl, Krain (now Crnomelj, Slovenia). Both names start to show up in the marriage records of both towns in the early-mid 1700’s. The families may have arrived earlier, but that is how far back the marriage records go.
My question is does anyone have any good ideas how Ruthenians would have ended up in the White Carniola region (Semic or Crnomelj) of the old AustroHungarian Empire no later than the early 1700’s?
Could they have been part of the group from Bereg County, Hungary to help resettle parts of Serbia in the early 1700’s, then to resettle in Krain, Austria?
Or were there other Ruthenian groups from the north eastern part of old Hungarian empire that would have settled in northern Croatian, then to ‘Austria’, or directly to ‘Austria’?
Did any Ruthenians participate with the Uskoks before they were re-settled in White Carnolia in the 1600’s?
Thank you for any information.

Rmuellem,

I can't answer your question directly. The earliest clear evidence I know of from my group is in the form of contracts dated 1745 for Ruthenians in Backa. But there are always strays. To my limited understanding, this was not an organized emmigration, but more a matter of small groups taking advantage of economics when they could. Then there is always the case of soldiers being based in various towns.

Gorše (Americanized as Gorsche, Gorshe, Gorsha) and Tomec are common Slovenian surnames (An Ruthenian origin?). Maybe data from the 1920 United States Federal Census about John Gorsche are wrong. In the 1910 US census the Nativity is listed as Austria, German.

Where is White Carniola? There was a Carniola, but White Carniola... never heard of this place. Perhaps you mean White Croatia, which is near the area of present day Poland and Ukriane?

GORSHE does NOT have the typical structure of a Ruthenian name.

Ruthenians were NOT settled in that region.

Ruthenians would not be Roman Catholic.

You seem to be relying soley on the info from the 1920 census, which is likely in error. Census records are often not very reliable.

As I believe I have pointed out in the past... Slovenian (Gorše): shortened form of the personal name Gregor, Latin Gregorius.Slovenian (Gorše): topographic name from a derivative of gora ‘mountain’, ‘hill planted with vines’, ‘wood in a hill country’ (see Gornik).

GORSE is a typical Slovenian name.

Once again the person listed as the owner of the GORSHA family web page is likely the person with the most knowledge of this surname, if you click on his name at the link below you can send him an email

http://www.angelfire.com/wa/gorsha/

The first Ruthenians left Hornjice , in 1745 to Lower Hungary in the Backa (in present-day Vojvodina) and settled in Rus Krstur.

1763 they settled Kucura. The process of settlement lasted 50 years. This population remained for many years in this area. They built a church and school, because they came as a literate people, and they wanted to continue their education and religious life as they had in the old country.

Because of the high birth rate, Ruthenians from Krstur Kucura and moving to Srjem (which at that time was part of Croatia) and other places in the Slavonia region of Croatia. Ruthenians settled first in Croatia Petrovce 1831 and then Mikluševci around 1840. In the early 1900s they settled in Rajevo Village, and Piškorevci ANDRIJEVCI. Idustrialization after World Wars I and II found Ruthenians moving to larger cities. In Croatia, most to Vukovar, but also to Zagreb, Rijeka, Osijek and Vinkovci.

Robert

The 1920 census states John immigrated 1866, perhaps another error?

And the 1900 census of a family which appears to be this same GORSCHE family lists Germany as their place of origin

The 1920 census for John JR lists that his parents came from Slovakia, but then again Slovenia and Slovakia were and are still confused with some people.

And 1900 lists them as Aust. German

And the 1930 census lists Barbara as Widow from Austria, language German

Here is a quote found on the Rootsweb Slovenia List !

"One interesting thing I found out about the Slovenians who came here to Shelby County, was that at first, they were back peddlers. They acquired a little money, came here and bought land. Many became quite well to do in their time."

Robert

Robert and Incitatus,
Thanks for your responses. I agree with the possibility of census error, but think they 1910 and 1920 are consistent in listing 'Austria' as nativity, and their marriage license lists Krain, Austria as birth place, so I'm pretty sure that is correct. The new information on the 1920 census was the 'mother tongue' of person and parents. It just seems to me unusual that a census taker would make the mistake to list 'ukrainian' as mother tongue and then bother to add 'ruthenian' in the same column.

As for 'white cariola', here's what I found in reference to the uskoks:
An agreement between the Habsburg and Venetians in 1618 expelled the Uskoks from Senj,[24] sending them more inland into Croatia with very few families who were proven to be peaceful remaining in Senj, bringing their reign to its end.
The pirates and their families were, accordingly, transported to the interior of Croatia, where they gave their name to the "Uskoken Gebirge", a group of mountains on the borders of Carniola now called Žumberak/Gorjanci. They were also settled in the nearby White Carniola and Kostel in what is now Slovenia. Their presence has also been traced near Učka in Istria, where such significant family names as Novlian (from Novi Vinodolski), Ottocian (from Otočac) and Clissan (from Klis, older orthography).
Here's a description of white carniola:
White Carniola (Slovene: Bela krajina; German: Weißkrain, Weiße Mark) is a traditional region in southeastern Slovenia on the border with Croatia and is the most southern part of the historical and traditional region of Lower Carniola. Its major towns are Metlika, Črnomelj, and Semič, and the principal river is the Kolpa, which also forms part of the border between Slovenia and Croatia. The terrain is characterised by low hills and forests with birch trees.

White Carniola is also known for its high-quality wines, such as metliška črnina (a dark red wine), belokranjec (a white wine), and modra frankinja (Blaufränkisch, a red wine

As for Gorshe and Tomec being common Slovenian names, I agree, but they are also common names in older Hungarian birth and marriage record names, so I was wondering if that may be the Ruthenian connection.

As for being Roman Catholic, I don't think it was unusual for the Orthodox or Greek Catholics to become 'Romanized', when they fled to the Austrian empire to escape the Ottomans.

Having said all of that, I still don't know enough about the geo political movements of people in that region during the 15-19th centuries.
It's still a mystery I'm hoping to get more help understanding.
Thanks again for your comments.

Robert,
Our posts crossed in cyberspace, so I didn't see this until after I sent the last post.

1866 is correct, the first post was my typo error. He would have arrived when he was 21 or 22 years old. I have tried to find his ship information, but haven't been able to yet. The family story is that he used a 'dead man's passport' in order to avoid the Austrian draft. I think it was hard for 21 year old to get out of the country before they performed their military obligation. I think the first peddlers from now Slovenia showed up in Chicago and Dubuque, Iowa in the 1850's or so. There were several. Many were from Semic, and his best friend was from Crnomelj. So I feel pretty certain of the region of their nativity, but I still haven't located their birth certificates. Nor have I reconciled the Ruthenian part (see last post), In the end it may have been a census takers error, but I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet.
Thanks again for your comments. I find them very helpful

Once again you may be placing too much emphasis on the 1920 census. And as I said before census records often times incorrect. If you want to place so much emphasis on such a record then 2 to 1 census records list them as German/Austria. Have you contacted Gary Gorsche?

Robert

I guess I'm not asking about his nativity, which I'm pretty sure of is in what was in the AustroHungarian Empire region what is now Slovenia. And I think the census records are consistent. I think it was common for census takers to refer to Austrians as Germans.
I more asking about his ethnicity. It seems like that part (Krain) of the AustroHungarian Empire, was settled by a lot of groups, with a lot of different ethnicities. Since it was on the border of the Empire, with a number of incursions with the Ottoman empire, I think it was strategically important to populated this region.
I know the Germans settled Gottschee county nearby starting in the 1400s, I just don't know if the Hungarians did the same. If so that would be the Ruthenian connection. Otherwise I think they are more likely Slav than German.
I e-mailed Gary at the link on the websit on Sunday, but haven't heard back yet.
I will let you know what I find out