I would be very grateful for any help in tracking down further information about the ancestors of this man, who was my GGG grandfather. He was born in Chester, but appears in the census records later in the 19th century living in Buckley, Flintshire, married to Elizabeth ROBERTS. The family moved to Widnes, then in Lancashire around 1893, where Joseph and his sons were employed as labourers in the growing chemicals industries there (alkaline and copper works). The Speed family went on to become very prominent in Widnes. Joseph's son Edward founded Speed's Widnes Ltd, an electrical contracting firm which was at one time one of the largest such firms in the NW of England. My father, his brother and a cousin, all Speeds worked in the firm, which finally closed in the early 1990s, I think. This cousin is Geoff Speed who is currently the presenter of Folkscene on BBC Radio Merseyside.

Unfortunately, I cannot trace Joseph back before the census of 1871 (by which time he has two children (Mary and Joseph (!)) so I can't find out who his parents and siblings are.

I'd really appreciate any help on this as I have been stuck on it for quite a while!

Thanks, Stephen Speed

There is plenty to help you find more. Cheshire have been very assiduous in putting data on to the net. Go to the Cheshire BMD site and you'll find Joseph and Elizabeth married at Chester St Mary's in 1866. The marriage certificate should give the name of his father and you can then find out which Joseph the one born 1848 or the one born 1850 is the one who married in 1866. This birth certificate should give you the mother's name and you can then find the marriage of his parents and you'll be one generation back. The 1841 and 1851 censuses should then with a bit of luck get you back to the early 1800s when the IGI should be able to take you back with a bit of luck to the 1600s. A word of caution : the Joseph Speed who died in Widnes in 1907 was aged 66 and looks like it might be the one whose birth was registered in West Derby in 1841 and is in conflict with your other information. Finally if you should find the family links back into Yorkshire in the early 1800s I should be very interested.

My SPEEDS are from Lincolnshire, England. Spanby and all that area. Some came to Texas in mid-1800's. Not sure if youre related or not.

Hi. I have no knowledge of any links to Lincolnshire. But if I find any, I'll be sure to let you know!

Thank you for that - incredibly helpful. As you can tell, I am relatively new to all of this. I have tracked down the Cheshire BMD reference to the marriage in 1866, which is a very exciting discovery. I am pretty sure these are the folk I am looking for. But the census info I have (1871, 81 and 91) all puts Joseph Speed's birth year firmly around 1838-1841 (he was a bit variable from one census to the next as to his year of birth) and our family seem reasonably sure that he was in his late sixties when he died in Widnes in 1907 (28 Nov, I believe). So there is a conflict, as you say as there are no Joseph Speeds registered as born in Chester in the relevant years. I'll get hold of the cert and that will help, I am sure. What did fox me was how you found the references to deaths in Widnes and births in West Derby, which I was unable to find on Lancashire BMD. Any help welcome. Thanks again

I found the references in FreeBMD, this covers the whole of England and Wales and has now reached the stage where there is almost complete coverage certainly within the years of immediate interest. This gives his age at death as 66 but as you say it seems to be a variable feast. In fact I think he was probably 71 and born in about 1836, the son of Charles and Mary Speed (Conflicting ages are not an uncommon feature of census returns). I looked this up in my local library using the ancestrylibrary facility that is available as far as I know in libraries throughout England and think I found them at Hoole Lane in Chester in 1851. I'll leave you to follow up the clues, a day in the Record Office at Chester should help you well on your way. P.S. Looking at the 1851 census it seems the Joseph born West Derby ended up in Chester.

Thank you for all your help. You've given me some great stuff to get started on - I'm just delighted. I'm planning a trip to Chester records office in August and also to Flintshire office at Hawarden to follow up on the Roberts family (Joseph's wife) where we have some interesting family documents that give us plenty of clues. Thanks again.

I would like to invite any UK male Speed surname descendant to consider participating in our U.S. Speed surname Y-DNA project. The goal of this Y-DNA project would be to see if we share common Speed ancestors between those lines in the UK and the U.S.. If you might be interested, there is more information about the project on our web site at http://chuckspeed.com/Speed%20DNA.html

Chuck Speed
e-mail: speedo@chuckspeed.com

I wondered if you would be willing to give me the benefit of your experience again. I now have the marriage certificate for Joseph and Elizabeth, married at Chester st Mary's, 30 May 1866. Crucially, Elizabeth's father is listed as Robert Roberts, which ties in with what we already know from family documents. Joseph is listed as a carter. The Joseph I have been looking for who I had followed back s far as the 1871 census was also a carter. Joseph's father according to the marriage cert is James. So I looked for James and found a family, James (b Chester abt 1800) and wife Hannah (b Hawarden abt 1795) and children, including Joseph and have been able to trace them forward through to 1881 when Hannah appears to have died (BMD index) aged 86, just after the census. Again, a key link is the census address. The Joseph I had already found back to 1871 and whom I have high degree of confidence is my GG grandfather, lived at Lane End in the Flintshire Parish of Pentrobin (the Buckley-Hawarden area). The 1841 census shows James and family also living at Lane End and this address is preserved in the family right up to 1881, when Hannah is still there. So all the clues point to this being the family I have been looking for. But there are two aspects troubling me a little. First there is the fact that the marriage cert lists Joseph and Elizabeth living in Saltney, not Buckley (close, but not the same place) and indeed, why did they get married in Chester anyway if they were living in Flintshire (by the way, James disappears from the census in after 1851 and so I assume was not at the wedding even though he is named on the cert). Second, there is a problem, as I said before abotu Joseph's year of birth. All the census records suggest that he was born around 1836-38. But according to the marriage cert this Joseph was 26 in 1866. In this case there is also a problem with Elizabeth's birth date. Our family records say she was born on 2 January 1846, but according to the marriage cert, she claimed then to have been born in 1843. Why would they both get married in Chester, pretending to be about three years younger than other documents say they were? Or is it just that these are the wrong people, in which case what am I to make of all the things about them above that do tie up? Is there anything obvious that I should be doing next to test out the facts I have so far collated?

Sorry to trouble you with this, but you seem to have a great deal of experience and may have some ideas which could help me.

I think it highly likely you have the right people,certainly looks that way on the balance of probability. The ages on marriage certificates are often a bit suspect. I wonder whether in your case the answer lies in the true age of Elizabeth according to your family records. If she was indeed born 1846 (There is an Elizabeth Roberts baptised Cilcain Flint 13/9/1846 d of Robert Roberts and Sarah in the IGI) then in 1866 she would not have been 21 the age at which in those days you had to be to marry without parental consent. I suspect that sometimes ages stated were 'doctored' so that the groom did not appear to be a cradle snatcher or the bride was in fact older than the groom. Often certificates merely say of full age(i.e. over 21). There was not requirement to produce evidence of age as far as I know and if you were not in your home parish who was to know any different.. Was the marriage by licence, this could indicate not home parish or one party under age. Looks like James death registered 1857 in Great Broughton district.