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Toynbees of Edinburgh and Fifeshire?

Toynbees of Edinburgh and Fifeshire?

Colleen Lill (View posts)
Posted: 24 Aug 2004 5:32PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Toynbee, Lill, Dennis, Machin
I am researching my husband's LILL ancestors. I have a copy of entries from the Lill family bible, - births, deaths and marriages.

As far as I'm aware, the entries were recorded by Hephzibah Dennis Lill (married to Henry Robert Lill 1879 Glasgow). She recorded the surname TOYNBEE several times in the bible. Here are the names recorded:

Elizabeth Toynbee died Jan 16 1896 - age 60
John Toynbee died Dec 19 1899 age 50

Dennis Toynbee married Mary Martan Dec 28 1895

Hephzibah named William Toynbee of 7 Piershill Terrace Edinburgh as one of the executors of her estate. She died Feb 1921 in Leuchars, Fife Scotland.

Hephzibah husband, Henry Robert Lill was born 1844 in Scopwick, Lincs. I have yet to locate a birth record for Hephzibah, however I believe she was born abt 1844 - in England. All census records for Hephzibah show she was born in England. Her parents were Benjamin Dennis and Sarah Machin and she had at least one brother - John Dennis. Sarah Machin Dennis died in Scotland June 1916.

The fact that Hephzibah married a man from Lincs (where the Toynbees were from, according to other posts on this board) and she mentions the Toynbees several times in the bible, suggest a definite connection to them. I also suspect that she was probabaly born in Lincs, but haven't yet located her birth record.

If anyone has information or a connection, I would like to hear from you.

Colleen Lill
Canada

Re: Toynbees of Edinburgh and Fifeshire?

Posted: 7 Sep 2004 9:17PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 10 Oct 2004 10:04PM GMT
I know there were Lills who were related to my fathers ancestors. I heard my granny and her sisters refer to Eppie (Hephzibah) Lill often when I was a child, and I think I must have met her.

Re: Toynbees of Edinburgh and Fifeshire?

Colleen Lill (View posts)
Posted: 8 Sep 2004 1:05AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Lill Toynbee
Hi Claire,

We are right on the money here!! My husband's grgrandmother WAS Eppie (Hephzibah) Lill ! This is the first that I've ever heard her referred to as Eppie.

Would love to share more information with you as this line of Lill's is pretty much unknown to me.

regards,

Colleen Lill
Canada

Re: Toynbees of Edinburgh and Fifeshire?

Posted: 9 Sep 2004 9:59PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 10 Oct 2004 10:04PM GMT
Surnames: Toynbee, Lill, Dennis, Machin, Graham, Brotherstone, Ritchie, Campbell
Delighted to hear from you Colleen. I could send you Gedcom files about the branch of my family and Hephzibah's. Certainly didn't know her because she was long gone before my arrival on the scene in 1936.

I know for sure why you couldn't find her birth date. They changed their name. Hephzibah's parents were Benjamin (Dennis) Murphy and Sarah Machin and my gt gt grandparents. Dennis was actually the christian name of Benjamin's father. I know about the Machins and have seen a photograph of Sarah. Sarah Machin Murphy (Dennis) is buried at Cockpen Church, Midlothian and shares a magnificent tombstone with her son and others. I have a photo of this showing his sculpted (bas-relief) face. I have also visited the church yard a couple of times. John Dennis was a very successful inventor and maker of retort bricks who also founded our family building contracting firm. Most of the Toynbee men worked for the firm, and so did Cammack, Hephzibah's brother. Although he lived in Bury, Lancashire, they did keep in touch. Somewhere I have a tape recording of my uncle John's meeting with Cammack.

I found Eppie's whole family in the Navenby, Lincolnshire OPRS the very first time I examined the IGI and Mormon filmes. However, it took years to work out who they actually were (about ten years!) since I had believed they were called Dennis. I only recognised them because one of the children had the extraordinary name of Alice Bradford Murphy - and my father's fathers mother was Alice Bradford .... She married a John Toynbee (father Stephen, mother Elizabeth Hammond). Every Census and other official stuff and family information confirms that the name change took place. No one knows why. But they also migrated to Scotland in the mid 1860s to join John Dennis (Murphy) who had previously gone "with only a trowel to his name" presumably to make his name in the beginnings of the shale oil industry in midland Scotland.

The Elizabeth Toynbee who died aged 60 in 1896 was almost certainly Elizabeth Hammond. There was another Elizabeth Toynbee living in Navenby about the same time, nee Tindall. I am considering getting the death certificates now.

Best if you can get in touch with me by email and I'll send you Gedcom files. There's lots of other family stuff directly relevant because I visited Addiewell in West Lothian, Scotland where lots of the old ones still stayed.

Did Eppie have a daughter called Polly? I remember a Polly coming from Canada to visit my mother and offering to take me and my sister back to Canada for the duration of World War 2.

Re: Toynbees of Edinburgh and Fifeshire?

Posted: 5 Feb 2007 9:40PM GMT
Classification: Query
I am researching a LILL in my family tree. His name was William Sharon or Sharon William LILL. He married my great great great grandmother Ann Bell Dickinson (widowed and first married name Ann Bell Wright)on 24th May 1868 in Whitby but I believe they were both from Lincolnshire. He was a brickmaker at the time. They later lived in Loftus, North Yorkshire. Ann already had many children (from memory 10) and went on to have more with Sharon.
As your Lill's likedunusual names, I wondered whether there mightbe any link (althoughI daresay Sharon was not so unusual then as I presume it is a Biblical name.
Family folklore suggested that this side of the family had Scottish links.
Cheers
Fiona

Re: Toynbees of Edinburgh and Fifeshire?

Posted: 5 Feb 2007 10:14PM GMT
Classification: Query
I have a William LILL who may well be the (half) brother of our Henry Robert LILL who was born in Scopwick, Lincolnshire on 12 June 1844 and died in Leuchars, Fife. Henry was 37 when he married, to Hephzibah Dennis normally resident at Eskbridge, Lasswade. He couldn't write. John Dennis (his brother-in-law) and Sarah-Ann Lill (his sister)were witnesses.

Note that on the marriage certificate her parents were given as father Benjamin Dennis, Mason journeyman (deceased) and Sarah Dennis maiden name, Machin.

In their latter years, they lived in Leuchars, Scotland. They appear in the 1881 Census for Lasswade (shown as Hill) and 1891 and 1901 as Leuchars, Fife.

Henry died of a cerebral thrombosis.

The person who knows the LILLS best is Colleen in this thread. I know about Toynbees. Hephzibah is the link.

The Toynbees went to Scotland in a chain migration which included members of the LILL family. Many of the men in my family either made bricks or were bricklayers. Good luck.

Re: Toynbees of Edinburgh and Fifeshire?

Posted: 6 Feb 2007 12:37PM GMT
Classification: Query
Thank you for that very prompt reply. Maybe if I reply to one of Colleen's messages, she will receive an alert.
One of the things I find so fascinating about family history research is the movement of populations in days when transport was so unsophisticated.

Re: Toynbees of Edinburgh and Fifeshire?

Posted: 9 Feb 2007 8:26PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hello Colleen
I have been advised to make contact with you as the expert on the LILLS.
I have a William Sharon or Sharon William LILL, who married my gg grandmother on 24th May 1868 in Whitby.His father, according to the wedding certificate, was John Lill (deceased) agricultural labourer. He was a brickmaker originating from Lincs. He was a widower aged 37 - my gg grandmother Ann Bell Wright a 35 year old widow. She was also from Lincs having married her first husband in Theddlethorpe. She already had 10 children before marrying Mr Lill- and I believe went on to have 4 more children. I don't know whether he had children from his previous marriage. Family folklore suggests there is some link to Scotland on this side of the family although my research has not supported this yet. Have you come across his name in your research of your Lills?
Cheers
Fiona

Re: Toynbees of Edinburgh and Fifeshire?

Posted: 10 Feb 2007 2:53AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Lill, Murphy, Dennis, Toynbee, Middleton, Machin
Dear Fiona,

I have checked my Lill records and I only have 1 John Lill that might match the record that you have. I show John Lill, son of William Lill and Ann Middleton, born 1832 and died 1850. He apparently died at a young age, however it's not impossible that he had a son (your William Sharon Lill ?) before he died. One thing that I have found about all my Lill research is that they followed naming patterns quite closely, which fortunately for me, made my research abit easier.

Most of my Lills lived in the Scopwick and Blankney areas of Lincs, with a few spreading out just short distances from there. However, one of the Lills that started the migration to Scotland was Henry Robert Lill (b 1844 Scopwick), younger brother to the John Lill I mentioned above. Henry and his other brother William Lill, married sisters - Hephzibah Murphy and Mary Machin Murphy, respectively.

In my very first post to this thread, I had mentioned that I hadn't found a birth record for Hephzibah. Shortly afterward, I met online a Toynbee cousin. Seems the Murphy girls were born as Murphys, however their surname was later changed, likely by their father, to Dennis. Their father was Benjamin Murphy (his own father was Dennis Murphy) and my Toynbee cousin suspects that him being irish had alot to do with the name change. Apparently being irish in the mid-late 1800's in England wasn't the best to be. Hence a name change? She and I have never found any specific documentation to support that, just the name changes by most of the siblings of Hephzibah and Mary.

Anyway, William and Henry both headed off to Scotland in the late 1870's and initially settled Lasswade. They eventually moved to Guardbridge and Leuchars in Fifeshire. Yet another sister of Hephzibah and Mary was Alice Bradford Murphy and she married John Toynbee who was a brickmaker. As John and Alice moved from Navenby Lincs to Scotland in the mid 1870's, it is believed that the other Murhy/Dennis/Lill families moved to follow them. John Toynbee was quite the businessman in the brickmaking business and made a very good living from it.

In answer to your question - I have never come across a William Sharon Lill in my research. If you haven't already done so, checking the parish records for the area around Whitby would be a good place to start for a birth record for him. As the Lill's weren't in Scotland prior to mid 1870's, there's no point in searching Scotland for any record of him before this time period.

Hope all of this has been of some help to you. Let me know if there's anything else that I can perhaps help you with!

Colleen Lill

Re: Toynbees of Edinburgh and Fifeshire?

Posted: 10 Feb 2007 10:05AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hello Colleen
Thanks for all that information. I will do as you suggest and check parish records for the Whitby area.
Fiona
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