Hi.

I would really love to order my GG Grandparents marriage certificate, but cannot find index anywhere. I've tried Ancestry, Free BMD, Rootsweb etc.

The details I have are:

Henry J Hawkins DOB 1880 Berkshire and
Mary Keating DOB 1879 Kingstown, Co Tipperary, Ireland

1911 UK census shows they have been married for 10 years.

We think he was serving in the Boer war 1898-1901, is it possible they were married overseas??

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for reading, Lisa (Australia)

Hi Lisa,

I have checked both the English & Irish marriage records 1900/1901 no marriage record is showing for the above couple.

Just checked Kingstown which is now Dun Laoghaire, Co Dublin, what do I find a marriage Henry J Hawkins and Mary Keating.

Registration district Rathdown (that is where I live)

Jan-Mar 1901

Volume 2 page number 842

You can order the cert at:

www.groireland.ie

Brendan

Hi Brendan,

Thank you very much for looking this up. I can't thank you enough.

I phoned the General Register Office in the UK 2 weeks ago and paid $25 for them to do a search for me. At least now I wont be disappointed when they tell me they can't find the certificate.

Can you tell me how you found the record? Maybe you could recommend a good website for me? I'm still yet to find them on a 1901 census.

Once again, thank you so much.

Lisa
tigerden1@bigpond.com

PS: Can't believe you live in same district.

Hi Lisa,

I found it here:

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=2;t=...

When you get the correct year, quarter, volume no. and page number for both parties to the marriage you know you have the correct record. There is a Hawkins Street in Dublin I wonder is there any connection.

Brendan

Lisa,

They are probably on the 1901 Dublin census, not yet online, but available at LDS libraries.

If you are looking for Mary Keating's birth cert use the website I gave you. In 1878/9 there were 118 Mary Keating births, but only 115 corresponding deaths, I presume she died outside Ireland, there is a Rathdown registration district birth for a Mary Keating which does not have a death record.

Mary Anne Keating Apr-Jun 1878 Volume 2 page 988

Brendan

Hi again Brendan.

All the info you've given me has been a great help.

Henry Hawkins was born in the UK - not sure what he was doing in Ireland 1900 - 1901? So I'm not sure about "Hawkins" street.

They must of moved to UK not long after being married, because they had their 1st child (my G Grandfather) in 1903, and he was born in London.

Henry died in 1920, I haven't found a death for Mary yet, but I would be 99% she died in UK.

I'll definitely be ordering the marriage cert, so hopefully I can find more info on the Keating family from that.

If you ever need help tracing something in Australia be sure to e-mail me.

Kindest Regards, Lisa
Melbourne Aust

Hi Lisa,

Henry may have been involved in something to do with shipping, port work etc, there was a Michael Keating living in Kingstown around the same time.

Come back to me when you get the marriage cert and I will try and track down Mary's family.

Brendan

Cool. Thanks Brendan.

email me directly at tigerden1@bigpond.com

I'm just about to fax the order for certificate.

Lisa

Hi LIsa,

I wonder if your ancestors actually married in Ireland. It seems somewhat inconsistent that Henry was born in Berkshire and came to Ireland to marry but went back to London for them to have their first child? Hawkins is a fairly common name in Dublin and Ireland and there were nearly two hundred of them in Dublin City around that time. Keating is a very common surname in Dublin and Ireland and there are of course at least 100 Mary Keatings in Dublin during that time.

However there is a Kingstown in County Tipperary, it's near Knockbulloge southwest of Cashel where the Rock of Cashel is. Your Mary Keating could indeed have been born in that Kingstown.

One of the challenges of researching in Ireland is that placenames are often in many counties, some even found in several locations in a county!

I would be very hesitant therefore to say that marriage in Dun Laoghaire, which was formerly Kingstown in County Dublin is your ancestor's marriage.

I would recommend that you request Mary Keating's civil birth cert from the General Register Office in Ireland http://www.groireland.ie and give them her name, date of birth and birth location in Kingstown, Co. Tipperary. They will get back to you if the birth wasn't registered.

I would recommend that you get Henry's military records which may give you locations where the couple were in their first years of marriage. They're at Kew in England in the UK Archives: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/?WT.ac=MH...

They would give detail about Henry's locations when he was in the British military. It would also include information about his wife, where they were married, etc.

I would also look for the marriage record in England since that's where Henry was born and where their first son was born.

Also I recommend that you get Henry's civil birth cert from Berkshire. His birth information will also be in his British military record.

The birth certs for both of course will include both parents names. The marriage cert for them would include the fathers name for each which is another way to verify the connection to your specific ancestors and not some other couple with the same names.

As I said Hawkins is a common surname in Dublin and elsewhere in Ireland and there were many families with that surname. Hawkins Street in Dublin is named after Alderman William Hawkins who in 1662 built a wall there from Townsend Street to Burgh Quay to enclose the river. He received a grant of the land, and built a street, which was named after him. It was called Hawkins Quay until more land was reclaimed from the Liffey.

Regards.

Eilis O'Hara

Hi Eilis,

I think you may not have read the earlier threads, Henry J Hawkins was born in England. He married Mary Keating Jan-Mar 1901 in Kingstown which is now Dun Laoghaire in the Rathdown registration district. There may have been a number of Hawkins living in Dublin at that time, but there was only Henry J and he married a Mary Keating.

Brendan

Hi Ellis,

Firstly I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to have a look at my message.

Mary and Henry didn't marry in England, I paid for a marriage search in the UK for 1900, 1901 and 1902, there is no record.

I have tried to order Mary's birth certificate but I'm having a little trouble with that one, so I'm now going to pay "groireland" to search for me with the few details I have.

As far as Henry's military records go, I have a researcher in the UK looking into this for me. Henry did not serve in WW1, he served in the Boer war. Unfortunately the researcher has not found any information as yet (he did find one Henry J Hawkins, but not mine).

I do have Henry's birth certificate, it shows his fathers name as John (a laborer).

I have the UK 1911 census that tells me where and when Mary and Henry were born and that they had been married for 10 years (1901). Mary and Henry are not on any 1901 census because they are in Ireland.

Brendan was correct with his information, I now have the marriage certificate and everything ties in perfectly. It shows Henry as a soldier, his fathers name John (a laborer), and their ages correct. It also shows that both Mary and Henry's fathers had died before 1901, which makes sense why I can't find John Hawkins on the UK 1901 census.

The one thing that still puzzles me is WHY was Henry in Ireland? I have a medal and photo which proves he served in the Boer war,South Africa, this went from 1899 - 1902. Maybe he was stationed there??

The details I have for Mary are: Mary Keating, born 1879 or 1880, according to the 1911 census she was born in Kingstown, her Fathers name was Michael (stone cutter). Any information about Mary's family would be greatly appreciated.

I also have Henry and Mary's sons birth cert (John Hawkins 1903, Middlesex, UK, this is where I found that Mary's maiden name was Keating.

Thanks again for contacting me.

Kindest Regards,

Lisa - Melbourne

Hi Brendan,

Yes I did read the threads. The England census noted that Mary was born in Kingstown, Co. Tipperary, not Kingstown, now Dun Laoghaire, Co. Dublin. I simply raised questions about whether that marriage cert was indeed the correct Henry and Mary since of course there wouldn't have been just one person with each of those names. And it seems very inconsistent that if Mary was born in Kingstown, Co. Tipperary she was married in Kingstown, Co. Dublin.

You should also be aware that the civil marriage records aren't at all complete and weren't complete until well into the Twentieth Century. So marriages aren't all in the civil marriage records but would be held locally at the local parishes for the various religious denominations.

Regards.

Eilis O'Hara

Hi Lisa,

You might be lucky, there is only one Mary Keating born in Rathdown Registration District 1879-1881.

Mary Elizabeth Keating Jan-Mar 1880

Volume 2 Page 986

Brendan

Hi again Eilis,

Sorry about the Kingstown thing, my fault.The UK census only shows Kingstown, Ireland. When I 'googled' Kingstown I saw Co. Tipperary, I just assumed.
Anyway, no harm done, I have the certificate and I'm sure it's correct.

Lisa

Hey Brendan,

Thanks for that. I searched the website you gave me last time and I found a few possibilities (so many counties, LOL).

I contacted "groiland" and they've sent me a form. I only have to pay an extra 3 pounds for them to search, and as I have her Fathers name I thought this would be the easiest way.

I've spent sooooo much money already, what's an extra 3??!!

Cheers for all of your help.

Lisa
tigerden1@bigpond.com

Eilis,

This is a copy of the official 1911 UK census return for Henry & Mary, no mention of Tipperary.

Name: Relationship to head: Marital Status: Years married: Sex: Age in 1911: Occupation: Where born:

HAWKINS, HENRY HEAD MARRIED 10 M 31 PAINTER AND DECORATOR TILEHURST BERKS
HAWKINS, MARY WIFE MARRIED 10 F 32 KINGSTOWN IRELAND
HAWKINS, JOHN SON M 8 LONDON KILBURN
HAWKINS, MAUD DAUGHTER F 6 LONDON KILBURN

HAWKINS HENRY (RG14PN7003 RG78PN346A RD129 SD1 ED23 SN297)
Address HARVIST ROAD, KENSAL RISE, LONDON W County Middlesex
District Willesden Subdistrict Willesden
Enumeration District 23 Parish Willesden

Brendan

Hi Lisa,

OK, that's much better!! You can order her civil birth cert from the General Register Office using that information and her father's name that you have. http://www.groireland.ie and click on "apply for cert".

Once you have the civil birth cert you can then identify which of the Keatings in Kingstown, Co. Dublin are yours from the 1911 census, here's the list, just click on each name and you'll get further detail:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?sur...

Mary's father isn't in the 1911 census since as you mentioned he was deceased when they married.

The 1901 Dublin census isn't as yet online, you can order the microfilms from your nearest LDS Family History Centre in Australia to search for Henry and Mary there. If he is included in the Ireland 1901 census then when would he have been in South Africa?

Regards.

Eilis O'Hara

Hi Brendan,

I did indeed check it myself and found no mention of Tipperary, however, there is a Kingstown in Tipperary as well as three in Co. Dublin and one in County Fermanagh. I also have world subscription to Ancestry.

However since Lisa said Kingstown, Tipperary I chose not to challenge what she had said.

Regards.

Eilis O'Hara

Hi Lisa,

I think Henry's service record in the British Military should hewlp explain where he was and when. It should also include additional information like where he was married, where his wife was born, etc. If they were in Ireland in 1901 then when was he in the Boer War in South Africa? Hopefully his military record will clear that up.

Here's a link to researching the Boer War records including medal information:

http://www.genealogyworld.net/boer/tracing.html

If you get Henry's obituary, cemetery record, death record or will those might include the regiment he served with and you could then identify where that regiment was and when. It would also proably explain when he might have been in Kingstown, Co. Dublin.

Regards.

Eilis O'Hara

Hi Lisa,

There are only two Michael Keating marriages in the Dublin District 1870-1879. One of these is in the Rathdown District, it is a good bet he is your Michael

1873 no quarter needed Volume 12 Page 186

I also think your Michael was born 1844 and died in Rathdown District 1889

Apr-Jun 1889 Volume 2 page 657

I also think he had a son Michael in 1876, he would be Mary's brother

Just out of interest, who were the witnesses to Henry & Mary's marriage.

Brendan

I think I'll leave the Boer War search up to the researcher in the UK, I've already paid him, so I might as well make him earn his money (laughing).
Maybe he was injured in 1900 and went to Ireland for a rest, met Mary, fell in love and they married. I'll probably never know - how frustrating.

Thanks so much for the link to Ireland census.

Kindest Regards, Lisa

Hi Lisa,

The parents names for that birth are Michael Keating and Anne Murph(e)y and the date is February 20, 1878.

This is possibly Mary's family with Annie as a widow in the 1911 census but you can confirm that better when you have Mary's civil birth cert including the exact birth location:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/King...

Regards.

Eilis O'Hara

Wow, you're amazing.

I e-mailed you a copy of the wedding cert the day I received it. Didn't you get it?
I'll send again to your e-mail address. Let me know if you receive it.

Email me at tigerden1@bigpond.com

Hi Lisa,

I do not think his military career lasted too long. He was born 1880, married when he was 21 and had his first child in Kilburn, London in 1903 (No mention of a military base). He was listed as a painter & decorator in the 1911 census.

You mentioned that Mary's father was a stone cutter, there was one working quarry in Kingstown at that time.

Brendan

I can't keep up with both of you :), but this is great, I haven't laughed so much in ages.

Witness to the wedding was Michael Keating, I also thought this was her brother.

Boer war campaigns: Relief of Ladysmith, Battle of Tugela Heights and Cape colony.

His sons bith certificate in 1903 also shows him as House painter.

Wedding certificate also shows Henry as a soldier and Mary a servant (5 Brien Cottages as residence).

Hi Lisa,

Great idea, no point researching what you're paying a researcher to search. His military record should at least show his dates of service and if he was injured it will include that also. They married while he was still in service in Ireland. The 1901 Kingstown census may give you some more bits of information either when you order the microfilms or when it goes online.

Regards.

Eilis O'Hara

I didn't know I could do this!!

Hi Lisa,

It was usual for the eldest son to give away the bride if her father was dead. Brien Cottages were in Glasthule, they have since been knocked down, they married on St. Patrick's day 1901 in St. Joseph's Church Glasthule. 1901 census would tell you exactly who was living in No. 5.

They both gave their address as no 5, they must have been staying with Mary's family, we do not know if Mary's mother was alive when she married.

Brendan

Just one thing. His middle name isn't Joseph, that's a mistake. His middle name is James.

There are just two Michael Keatings listed in Kingstown in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?sur...

Glad you're getting a good laugh out of this, I am too!!

Eilis

Hi Lisa,

Includes photo of the church they married in and the village they lived in:

http://www.sandycoveglasthule.com/photos.html

Brendan

Hi Lisa,

Here's a link to the church:
http://stjosephsglasthule.com/component/option,com_frontpage...

http://stjosephsglasthule.com/content/view/31/30/

Regards.

Eilis

And here are some photos of Glasthule:

http://www.sandycoveglasthule.com/photos.html

Eilis

This entry in the 1911 census shows Stephen Keating in Glasthule Buildings,

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/King...

Eilis

Oh Wow, how beautiful. I'm definitely adding these photos to my tree.

Can't believe you both sent link at same time (funny).

Now I want to visit the UK (where I was born), and Ireland even more. I can't thank you both enough for all of this information.

I will be ordering Mary's birth certificate tomorrow, as soon as I get it I'll post it here (now that I've realised I can add pictures).

Cheers to you both,
Lisa

Hi Lisa,

I have contacted the PP in Glasthule, hope for a reply later, my eldest daughter made her Holy Communion in St. Josephs, Fitzgeralds pub was my local, still friends with all the family, my eldest son went to Harolds Boys school when he was at primary school level.

Brendan

Hi to the both of you,

Have to get back to the real job now, my G Grandfather was Michael Keating, master blacksmith, my cousin Michael Keating was Lord Mayor of Dublin.

Brendan

Hi Lisa,

I think it's even more beautiful in person than the photos show!! Especially on a sunny day!! People abroad are always interested in what their ancestor's birthplace looks like.

If you go to Google Earth you can get the US NASA satellite images of what the area looks like from space.

Hopefully the General Register Office won't be too long send off the birth cert. Be sure to add your email addy on the application and they'll email you if they have any queries.

All the best.

Eilis

Hi Brendan,

Michael is your relation? I see the Criminal Assets Bureau got him for €250,000 for unpaid tax and there's a warrant out for him in the UK for VAT fraud. Genealogy is very interesting isn't it?

Regards.

Eilis O'Hara

Hi Brendan,

Thought you might want to see the bit RTE had about it:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/0517/keatingm.html

Regards.

Eilis O'Hara

Michael is my 4th cousin, I have spoken to him about the warrent, and he says it does not exist, he has never been charged or arigned before the courts, innocent until proven guilty. It was all part of a dirty tricks campaign and from recent revelations we can all see what has been going on in Irish politics over the last number of years. Another of my cousins was Frank McBrearty's senior counsel, was he guilty?

Brendan

Hi Lisa,

You may want to note on your message on the Tipperary message board about Keatings from Kingstown, Tipperary that yours were actually from Kingstown, Co. Dublin.

Regards.

Eilis O'Hara

Hi Brendan,

I had a reply from "groireland" today (see attached).
Obviously the wrong record.
I've requested another search, fingers crossed!!

Cheers, Lisa

Hi Brendan,

How's the weather In Ireland??

I think I've found what I've been searching for. I'm not 100%, as my documents only show Mary Keating, not Mary Anne. I can understand DOB is a year out as I've come across this many times before...I thought she was born in 1879.

Anyway, I value your opinion and would love to hear what you think.

Cheers, Lisa

Hi Lisa,

I am sorry for not replying earlier, I was away for two weeks on the Greek Island of Zakynthos.

The birth record looks to be correct, Fathers name Michael, Stonecutter, her name is spelt Mary Anne.

I am not too sure about the census record, they may be related, maybe Edward was her brother living with their grandmother Murphy ?

Brendan