Greetings! Perhaps this query from America will help to shed some light on the Brandl family. I hope so, because this is a stubborn brick wall on my father's side of the family.

My father's mother was Theresia Brendl (sometimes spelled Brandl). Some of the best information about her parents comes from the birth record for her daughter Pierina Filomena Maria Dapra' (b. 15 May 1904): "Brandl Teresa da Kleinlobming /Steria/ di Francesco e Giovanna n. Peiternikl /n. 4-X-872/."

Theresia Brendl/Brandl married Romano Dapra' and had nine children; one of them is my father.

I would love to know whether Theresia and/or her parents appear in anyone else's family trees, and, of course, who her ancestors were! Tilman, perhaps this in the link to America that you have been waiting for!

Thank you!

Miriam Dapra

Hello Miriam,

welcome to the Brandl message board, and thanks for posting your query here!

In order to break through any brickwall, the main question probably is, whether there's reliable information, particularly regarding the year of birth of your grandmother. From the record you quote, she seems to have been born in 1872? Also this appears to be an Italian birth entry, right? From this it further seems that your grandparents had moved to Italy (at least temporarily) where your Austrian g-grandparents' (Theresia's parents') names may have been 'Italianized'. If that's the case, their names have probably been Franz and Johanna. Would be interesting to find out whether there's more on your g-grandmother's family in the Kleinlobming parish books. And also of your g-grandfather's people - there are 7 Brandl's listed in Kleinlobming (one is a Theresia).

Kleinlobming is a well known location, some 8 miles south of Knittelfeld into the hills. Here's some tourist information: http://www.tiscover.at/guide/5,en/objectId,RGN135543at/home....

Have you any information on your grandfather's profession? If I'm not mistaken, he (or anyway his parents) seem to have lived in Styria during the time when they built the Semmering alpine railway track - which when opened was btw. the reason for the decline of the stage-coach business my g-g-grandfather did run a bit North of Knittelfeld (maternal side, so not a Brandl). They had to actually close it down. Must check the time when this happened....

There are btw still some 17 DAPRAs listed in the Austrian phone dirictory, one of them in Styria (Graz).

As to your g-grandmother's maiden name, there are still 5 Peiternigl listed (note different spelling) in Austria, all of them in Styria, and 4 of them in Knittelfeld. No Peiternikl, alas. I guess there's a rather high probability that some of them are related to you.

Hope this will help to get you along with your research a bit better. Please let us know, if there's anything we can help you with.

As to my American Brandl links (LOL) - as I maybe have said somewhere earlier, I wouldn't be too surprised to find some. But I don't really expect them to actually pop up out of the blue <g>

Best regards from Austria

Tilman

Hello, Tilman,

Thanks so much for your reply! It's raising lots of questions for me, but I will attempt to answer all of yours, first.

Yes, that was an Italian birth record that I posted that had my grandmother's information in it. Her date of birth (1872) seems to be correct; it varies little from record to record. She and Romano Dapra' were married 2 May 1898, as nearly as I can tell.

My grandfather Romano Dapra' was from the Trento area (Termenago, to be exact) of what is now northern Italy (in the Tyrolean Alps). I do not know where they got married, or how it came to be that he (from the southern side of the Alps) found her (up in Austria). I know nothing at all about what either of my great-grandfathers did for a living, although Romano's father Giovanni apparently farmed.

I do have Dapra' relatives in Italy; two of my sisters and one of my brothers have met those relatives. I hope soon to get the address for the relatives who speak English and write to them for more information.

All of your information is good news to me - especially the alternate spelling for "Peiternikl" (-nigl), and the fact that there are still families with that surname in Austria. However, I am "stuck" when it comes to doing further research. I have access to the Internet, but so far have found nothing there except this message board. I live fairly close to Salt Lake City, Utah, and have access to the Mormon's Family History Library when I go there. It has been of tremendous help on the Italian branch, because so many church records for Italy have been microfilmed.

However, I understand that Austria, because it is predominantly Catholic (I am one, also), has refused to let the Mormons microfilm their records. It would be a shame to have all this wonderful information you sent me go to waste, so if you have any suggestions as to where I might write for more information, I would be most appreciative! Of course, there is another slight handicap under which I labor -- I know no German at all (I can read bits and pieces, but not enough, and I cannot speak or write the language at all).

It would be exciting if I were one of your American Brandl links, popping up "out of the blue" - but it looks as if I need to do some footwork! Whatever leads or hints or addresses you can give me will be gratefully accepted.

Thanks again,

Miriam

Hi Miriam,

you're right, only a few of Austria's parish books have been microfilmed sofar. Which is a pity, if you ask me: Many of the old books are in a rather deplorable shape already. And its easy to understand that some parish priests do hesitate granting access to the original records - as I have experienced myself. I have no idea whether the parish books of Kleinlobming might be microfilmed or not - I couldn't find that place however. But if you want, you could still check this further at their library.

What I know is, that most of the books are still with their original parishes, only a few have been transferred to the diocesan archives. I'll soon know more about this re. Kleinlobming, and keep you posted. The Kleinlobming parish has no homepage on the web, unfortunately.

Other possibilities to get along with your research would be to also use other boards, especially those being related to Styria. You can find them easily by searching for Styria + genealogy at http://www.google.com/

Places you might visit for example are
http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=l... (or go to ancestry.com and search for the lists there). And then there are a few Styria related topics at http://www.rootsweb.com/~autwgw/ and of course those at familysearch.com:
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Library/fhlcatalog/supermain...

On the other hand, it would perhaps be a sensible thing to first concentrate on the parish books and also on the people who might possibly be related. Since these are not too many, I for one would consider writing them letters.

No need to fear >to have all this wonderful information you sent me go to waste< ;-) There's enough to build on, I think.

As to the language, true, this can be difficult to handle - not too sure how many of the folks up in Kleinlobming do read (and write) English, since this still is a pretty rural area. But there's help at your hand:

Have a look at Cindy's List: http://www.cyndislist.com/, or at this page on the FHL site: http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Rg/frameset_rg.asp?De... or at: http://www.genealogienetz.de/misc/letters/let-off.html

The hints you'll find there should help you compile your letters to make further requests. And if all fails, I can also help you with a translation or two <g>

That's it for now - I'll soon let you know where these parish books are !

Best regards

Tilman

Hi Miriam,

in continuation to my last message, here is where you'll find the Kleinlobming parish books:

Diözesanarchiv
Dr. Norbert Allmer
Bischofplatz 4
8010 Graz

Dr. Allmer understands English so you can easily email him any requests you have (but let me know if you run into any unexpected difficulties).

The email-address is:
(Dr. Norbert Allmer at) archiv@kath-kirche-graz.at

>> It would be exciting if I were one of your American Brandl links, popping up "out of the blue" <<

Yes, more than exciting, indeed! Meanwhile though I'm not going to hold my breath <g> I know that there are plenty of Brandls down there in Styria, I have had contact with some of them already. However, I haven't found a single one who knew of any relations with Lower-Austia where my people come from.

Hopefully one day I will be able to solve a few of the many riddles regarding the geogrphic distribution of Brandls all over the country (we have at least some 1800+ here in Austria, not counting the Brendl, Prandl etc.). Difficult to imagine that there should be no relation at all.

Good luck with your search

Tilman

Thank you so very much, Tilman, for the excellent information and leads on my research in Styria! I am most pleased and grateful for the addresses of the archives in Kleinlobming (surface and email) - now I can do actual overseas research, from the comfort of my home! It will be the first time I've done "real" research on "the other side of the pond."

I see that one of the web addresses you sent me has the word "Steiermark" in it -- my father's memory is not too good these days, but every once in a while he comes up with something good. I had showed him your first reply on this board, and he said, "Well, don't ask any questions, but when my father was upset with my mother, he'd call her "the woman from Steiermark" -- !!!

(He even dredged up the name of a "cousin" who came to the United States: John PEDRAZZOLI". It was the first I'd ever heard of any relative by this name, although one or two of his father's brothers came over. The last name sounded familiar, so I checked my copies of Italian birth & death records, and sure enough, "Pedrazzoli" was one of the surnames in the town my grandfather came from! Now to find which woman married the "Pedrazzoli". . . that's going to be tougher, and is a subject for a different message board. . . .

Thanks once again!

Miriam

Hello Miriam,

> Thank you so very much, ....

Welcome! And I wish you all the success with your research.

> "the woman from Steiermark" -- !!! LOL. That's a good one <g> As you may have guessed yourself, Steiermark is German for Styria, the name of one of the nine Austrian provinces (federal states or 'Laender').

Good luck with resarching the Pedrazzoli branch too.

And also - please let us know about any results re. your Kleinlobming Brandls.

Cheers
Tilman

Tilman, I owe you a huge debt of gratitude!! I finally got around to emailing Dr. Norbert Allmer on 30 April, and this morning I received a very nice letter from him, with information about my grandmother Theresia BRANDL's family!

For general information, he says that "We don't have the books of the parish Kleinlobming in Styria in the diocesan-archives but we have handwritten copies of the original records starting with 1835."

Here's the information that he gave me -- does any of it ring a bell with anyone reading this message? Do any of these names match your names? If so, I'd be pleased to hear from you!

Theresia BRANDL, daughter of Franz BRANDL and Johanna PEITENICKL (daughter of Michael PEITENICKL and Maria WILLINGER), b. 4 October 1872 in Kleinlobming 81. Married 2 May 1898 in Kleinlobming to Roman Isidor DAPRA, b. 28 Febr. 1873 in Pracorn in South Tyrol [now Italy] (he's the son of Johann DAPRA and Philomena CAVALLAR).

Franz BRANDL and Johanna PEITENICKL were married on 27 Febr. 1854 in Kleinlobming. She was his second wife; his first wife was Elisabeth PABST (daughter of Anton PABST and Maria UHL), and they were married 9 February 1852 in Kleinlobming. Elisabeth died shortly after they were married.

Franz BRANDL was born about 1834 on the "Hausergut" [I don't know what this means] in Sonnberg 80 in Mitterlobming. He was the son of Franz BRANDL and Magdalena GELTER.

Franz BRANDL (the younger) was 18 years old at his first marriage; Elisabeth was 24 years old (1852). Johanna PEITENICKL was 20 years old when she and Franz were married (1854).

I see that I will have to carry around two names for a some of my relatives -- no, make that THREE names: one in German, one in Italian, and one in English! (for example, Johann, Giovanni, and John DAPRA are one and the same: my great-grandfather!)

This is superb, even though it raises a lot more questions! Thanks again, and a thousand blessings on your head, for posting Dr. Allmer's email address for me!

Miriam

Hi Miriam,

wow! Great news!

I'm really glad that you did get that information from the archives eventually. You're of course right, the diocesan archives don't have the originals, only copies of the books for that specific period of time.

As to the 'Hausergut' you mention as the birthplace of Franz in abt. 1834: 'Gut' generally describes an estate, not a simple farm (-house). 'Hauser' probably was the name of a family, maybe that of the (original) owner. In other cases such naming prepositions may stand for a location, like in Bichlgut which would be an estate situated on a hill (Bichl=Buehel => hill, small mountain).

>> I see that I will have to carry around two names for a some of my relatives -- no, make that THREE names: one in German, one in Italian, and one in English! (for example, Johann, Giovanni, ...) <<

Actually this can happen easily, at least in Europe with its comparatively small countries. Moving a few kilometers over any border (or a moving border !) can change things considerably. Also, back then when countries were bigger, like the Austro-Hungarian Empire, they were of mixed ethnicity. Recently I have found a maternal branch of my family, German Austrians who lived close to Friuli (Italy), in Slowenia of present day. Their family name was del Negro, which later became translated into Schwarz (German) and even to Svarc (Slowenian). And of course there's also a Joannis (Latin?) who really was Johannes (German), while his wive called him Giovanni.

I don't know which genealogical software you are using, however most of them offer options to have AKAs for other names/spellings (e.g. Legacy which I'm using). BTW, I have a relative who even changed his (Italian) last name into a totally different English one. <sigh>

Good luck with your future research

Tilman

There is even better news! Dr. Allmer sent back an email in answer to my request for any siblings of my grandmother Theresia BRANDL (later DAPRA), and now I have eight (more) grand-aunts and grand-uncles!!

I want to share this with you all, taking the information directly from Dr. Allmer's email:

"The children of Johanna Peitenickl/ Peiternikl and her husband Franz BRANDL in Sonnberg 81, vulgo Grubbauergut in the parish Kleinlobming have been:

Anton: * 13. 1. 1855
Maria: * 2. 2. 1857
Georg: * 24. 4. 1959
Aloisia: * 7. 6. 1861
Katharina: * 27. 4. 1864
Bartholomäus: * 19. 8. 1866
Peter: * 21. 2. 1870
Theresia: * 4. 10. 1872
Ferdinand: * 20. 5. 1876"

He also gave me an address in Kleinlobming to write to for other information: A-8743 Kleinlobming, Pfarrhof.

That address looks too short. Tilman, please could you let me know how the whole address is supposed to look? I would assume, for instance, that there should be some sort of civil registry or office to address a letter to? And I think the United States' post office would probably like to see "Austria" on the letter, too. . . not too many of us (unfortunately) speak other languages!

Thanks very much for the other information you gave me, Tilman. May your research gain you as much wonderful information as I've received in the last few days!

Miriam