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Passenger Lists for New South Wales c1880

Re: Passenger Lists for New South Wales c1880

Posted: 14 Jul 2015 1:58PM GMT
Classification: Query
Harriet's death certificate has 5 years in NSW and 1 male and 1 female children living and 1 male deceased. A son Joseph died a few weeks before Harriet in 1884 and a daughter Lettice was born in 1882. The unknown is if the living male was my GGFather William as his death certificate says he was born in Oldham, England. I have also not been able to find a marriage certificate for Joseph and Harriet.

Re: Passenger Lists for New South Wales c1880

Posted: 14 Jul 2015 9:38PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Holmes Bradshaw Harris
Hi Kellie,

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=723367.msg569...

The above thread, provided by Debra, has a heap of interesting info, possibly, about the family before they left England.

The long message on Page 3, of that thread, posted by Debra, is worth reading. I think she is pretty close to working out the story about the parents of William HOLMES born 1875.

I can see the "possible" birth registration for William HOLMES.

Surname: HOLMES
Forename: William
Mother's Maiden Name: BRADSHAW
Year: 1875
Sub-District: Formby
Registers At: North Sefton
Reference: F/10/10

Part of that info, copied here.........

"In 1876 Harriet’s sister Elizabeth married Edward George HARRIS and they moved to Birmingham.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NX6B-9S4

The 1881 census has them as:

10 St Mary Street,
Ladywood,
Birmingham

Edward G. HARRIS, 35, Insurance Agent, born Sibford Ferris, Oxfordshire
Elizabeth, 26, born Longton, Staffordshire
Archibald B., 2, born Cannock, Staffordshire (the 'B' is for BRADSHAW)
William BRADSHAW, 4, Nephew, Scholar, born Oldham, Lancashire

Of course this could be a child of one of Elizabeth's other siblings but his age and birthplace match your William. I do wonder if Harriet sent for him after she established a relationship with Joseph in Australia. If this is the case then it might be difficult to find an arrival for him as he would likely be listed under the name of whoever brought him out.

I think this is Joseph's marriage in England, 6 March 1876:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXY6-782

Your Joseph is the only person that I can see who fits the age, place and father's name. Joseph and Betsy had a daughter named Ellen around 1876, soon after they married. I think I do know what happened with Betsy's later life but it is very complicated and will leave that for another time. Suffice to say that her husband wasn't at home with her in 1881."


So maybe, William HOLMES was born in 1875, out of wedlock to a "Mr" HOLMES, and Harriet BRADSHAW. (You would need to get his birth certificate, to explain why he is registered as a HOLMES). "Mr" HOLMES could possibly, be Joseph.

Then Joseph HOLMES married Betsy, in England, had a child, and left the relationship, by 1881. Then he turned up in NSW, and reconciled with Harriet, and was unable to marry, as he was married back in England. Two children born in NSW, prior to the death of Harriet.


Jean, have you purchased, these NSW birth certificates, to gather information, on the parents?

25653/1882 HOLMES LETTICE JOSEPH HARRIETT LAMBTON

28208/1884 HOLMES JOSEPH JOSEPH HARRIETT NEWCASTLE

Mary

Re: Passenger Lists for New South Wales c1880

Posted: 14 Jul 2015 9:50PM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 14 Jul 2015 10:01PM GMT
Surnames: Holmes Bradshaw
Hi Kellie,

Re... "her time in colony?

In that same reply by Debra, that I just referred to, Debra posted the migration.
"Harriet BRADSHAW (aged 20) and Ellen STANIER (aged 15) arrived into Queensland in 1879 on the ship Arthurstone."

The thread on RootsChat, was completed, a couple of weeks before a similar message was posted on this website.

Overall, the migration of Joseph HOLMES, and William HOLMES, to Australia, has not yet been located.

The positive birth of William HOLMES, about 1875, has not been confirmed.
I have suggested to Jean, that she purchase the 1875 English birth certificate, to see if that William, was a child of Harriet BRADSHAW.

Mary

Re: Passenger Lists for New South Wales c1880

Posted: 15 Jul 2015 12:45AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 15 Jul 2015 12:50AM GMT
Surnames: Holmes
Hi Jean,

Re, this birth and marriage: ... 25653/1882 HOLMES LETTICE JOSEPH HARRIETT (District) LAMBTON

Lettice HOLMES moved to Albany, WA.

Here is her 1902 marriage, in Albany.

HOLMES LETTICE Female CLARK GEORGE CHARLES Male ALBANY 1767 1902

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/88491868?searchTerm=...

Last column, (Auction Sale Today, 11 August 1900) has Estate of Holmes, in the above article.

As Lettice HOLMES, was under 21years of age, she would have needed permission to marry. Just wondering if you have her marriage certificate?

Have you found the death of Lettice HOLMES' father, Joseph HOLMES?

I thought, that this death in August 1900, might be him, in Kalgoorlie.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/88491998?searchTerm=... holmes"&searchLimits=l-state=Western+Australia|||l-decade=190|||l-year=1900

HOLMES JOSEPH 35 UNKNOWN UNKNOWN UNKNOWN 518 1900

Maybe, the informant had limited knowledge of his background, so the certificate might not help. It would be good if it showed his "time in the colony".

Mary

Re: Passenger Lists for New South Wales c1880

Posted: 15 Jul 2015 1:08AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hiyas,
Possible birth for William BRADSHAW in Oldham which would fit better with the details known.
Name: William Bradshaw
Birth: Oct 1876 - Oldham, Lancashire

I asked about Harriet's children as it's pretty uncommon to find one child born to a 'couple' then nothing for years then suddenly start again with 2 in 2 years.
I'd say the story is pretty close with Harriet having William as BRADSHAW as an unwed mother then meeting a man, beginning a family and the first child taking on the new daddy's name.

So it appears Harriet came out 1879 and William was still in England atleast until 1881.

Kellie

Re: Passenger Lists for New South Wales c1880

Posted: 15 Jul 2015 1:50AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 15 Jul 2015 1:52AM GMT
Hiyas,
I also wondered about Joseph but nothing in NSW seemed to fit. Maybe the WA death is him, as they all seemed to move that way but then previous assumption wouldn't match.

If he was 35yo when he died in 1900 gives approx. birth of 1865.
Way too young to be the guy who married 1876 in England and too young to be the biological father of William ALTHOUGH still a possible match for hubby of Harriet and father of children born 1882/1884.

Kellie

EDIT. apart from the assumption that Joseph fathered William (which I do think the HOLMES birth may be incorrect) what makes us think Joseph was in England?

Re: Passenger Lists for New South Wales c1880

Posted: 15 Jul 2015 2:13AM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Holmes
Hi Kellie,

Re... "EDIT. apart from the assumption that Joseph fathered William (which I do think the HOLMES birth may be incorrect) what makes us think Joseph was in England?"

That is a good question that you pose.

Without a certificate, to prove the birth place of Joseph HOLMES, it becomes just an assumption.

I have asked Jean if she has purchased the 1882, or 1884, NSW birth certs, of Joseph and Harriett HOLMES', children.

That should provide info, on the age of Joseph HOLMES and his birthplace, and occupation.

This marriage below, posted by Debra, (on RootsChat), on 6 March 1876, matched, for Joseph HOLMES, who we know had a father of Samuel HOLMES, as per the October 1884 Newcastle death notices in the paper.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXY6-782

So yes, you are correct, that we are just assuming, that Joseph HOLMES came from England.

The Kalgoorlie death, in Aug 1900, of Joseph HOLMES, I am assuming was registered by someone, not familiar with his background, as father is Unknown and mother is Unknown. Maybe, they just guessed his age, as 35yo.

Mary

Re: Passenger Lists for New South Wales c1880

Posted: 15 Jul 2015 2:56AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hi Mary,
I can see a few Joseph HOLMES in Australia (NSW) with father Samuel but nothing matching wife/children.
I'm actually trying to work on a timeline probability.

Joseph's father Samuel appears to be in NSW by the funeral notice but finding anything matching them is hard. I don't doubt Joseph may have been born in England but the timeframe for him leaving England is important.

The birth certs for either child born 1882/1884 could help clear up his date/place of birth. True.

I wonder if Joseph kept William and the sister after Harriet died? Assuming William was in Australia by then.
Quite possible someone guessed an age of 35yo but then it's also possible he just was about 35yo. Joseph's parents may have died before the children were old enough to remember their names or they may have just moved to WA before the children were old enough to know Joseph's parents.

There are other possible deaths for Joseph but matching wife/childrens names is the problem. Although we have no idea if he was married previous, we don't think he married Harriet and we don't know if he married afterwards, so really any of them could be him.

Kellie

Re: Passenger Lists for New South Wales c1880

Posted: 15 Jul 2015 4:14AM GMT
Classification: Query
Hiyas,
There is a Samuel HOLMES died 1911 Braidwood with parents Samuel and Kate.
It could be the right Samuel as his parents appear to be Samuel and Catherine.
Samuel's will 1911 leaves everything to his son Joseph of Majors Creek.
Death of that son
12332/1913 HOLMES JOSEPH SAMUEL HELEN BRAIDWOOD

The Joseph mentioned on the Rootschat had parents Samuel and Ellen.

Kellie

Re: Passenger Lists for New South Wales c1880

Posted: 15 Jul 2015 5:01AM GMT
Classification: Query
Edited: 15 Jul 2015 5:24AM GMT
Surnames: Holmes
Hi Kellie,

The Braidwood fellows, are a possibility.

Here are their death reports, in the papers. 29 July 1911, and 30 Aug 1913:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/130421316?searchTerm... "majors creek"&searchLimits=l-state=New+South+Wales|||l-decade=191|||l-title=472

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/100638889?searchTerm... holmes"&searchLimits=l-decade=191|||l-title=472

There are a few mentions in the Braidwood paper, for Joseph HOLMES, being drunk.

Mary
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