General - Family History & Genealogy Message Board

Re: Thomas Pentland

Cleekamin — 2013-05-26 00:04:31Z

The movement wold tend to be linear raher than circular. Industrialisation of linen production provided employemnt in Belfast, Prtadown and other centres and younger sons followed the country tracks to these centres, like Annagh.

Bear in mind also that communities like Belfast, Banbridge, Portadon, and Drogheda to name a few all sarted out in one county on one side of a river. As the eighteenth century closed they all spread across their river to encompass two counties. This means that births in Belfast counld be recorded in Antrim or Down, in Drogheda could be in Louth or Meath. As important the growth of these communities meant that baptism could be recorded in more than one parish.

Movement in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries was more common than today's researchers expect.

Re: Thomas Pentland

Roy_Pentland — 2013-05-25 23:43:33Z

Considering that a circle of 6okm diameter would encompass most of Armagh and Down, inlcuding Belfast, is it reasonable back in the 1700-1800's, for people to marry and move amongst these counties or did they tend to stick to their orgins?

Re: Thomas Pentland

Cleekamin — 2013-05-25 14:40:42Z

Richard Pentland did indeed marry Elizabeth Topley or Tapley, depending on which spelling you choose to believe, in 1866, however his father's name was Daniel and he had been married before - to Mary Pentland, father John in the parish of Drumcree in 1855. Both died Richard and Elizabeth in the same area their deaths being reported in Lurgan (the registration district which covered Portadown) in 1900 and 1889 respectively.

Richard appears to have had a brother Daniel born c 1830 who married Margaret Lennon in 1867, registered Lurgan and had two children, a daughter Meredith whose name conjecturally confirms that Richard had a sister called Meredith and a son Alexander.

These exchanges of views are very helpful; this has enabled me to connect together another two disparate lines, thank you. I'm also still open to the idea that the London couple are related to this line.

Re: Thomas Pentland

Roy_Pentland — 2013-05-25 14:15:58Z

This is most interesting. In the space of 11 hours you wonderful people have not only confirmed a guess (Mary S McClelland was a name that appeared but I could not link it until Henry Pentland showed up in this thread), but you have also clarified why it is hard to find anything on Richard in the Pentland family! With the repetition of the name in my line, it's a fair bet that any Richard Pentland is a probable link.
There is evidence of a Richard Pentland (circa 1843) marrying an Elizabeth Topley in Portadown. Could this be the youngest child of Richard P and Mary Ann Davis?

Re: Thomas Pentland

Cleekamin — 2013-05-25 12:43:41Z

Henry Pentland, parish of Seapatrick son of Richard Pentland married Mrs. Mary McNeight (M. S. McClelland) 30 May 1860. The marriage was registered in Banbridge.

From another researcher I understand that one of the witnesses to Davis Pentland's marriage was Henry Pentland.

The two isolated facts are not in themselves proof but the dates and connection with Richard PPentland, given that Richard is an extremely unusual forname in Pentland cirles, strongly suggest a connection.

Re: Thomas Pentland

rtransit — 2013-05-25 11:59:19Z

Cleekamin,

To that effect, the names running through our line include the following:
John
William
William John
George
Thomas
Thomas George
George
George Alexander
Samuel

The female names are:
Elizabeth
Elizabeth Jane
Ann
Lucy
Elizabeth Ann
Jane Elizabeth
Margaret

Re: Thomas Pentland

Cleekamin — 2013-05-25 07:25:27Z

The problem, f course, with any Irish family research is that so much of the evidence is missing and the way forward (or of one wishes to be pedantic - backwards) is based on conjecture.

In my experience Alexander is not a name in wide use by Pentland families over the centuries and the Pentland families in Middlesex all, at some point, moved there from somewhere else.

Checking census returns for the Pentlands in St George's East one finds two families in 1841 whose children has forenames which suggest a relationship with Alexander and Elizabeth; John, a bricklayer with a famly member, possibly a son, called Richard and George, a shoemaker born in Ireland. There is no evidence that they were related other than conjectural. John was born in Middlesex but his exact age is unknown since he died before 1851 but George survived and he was born in 1799 in Ireland.

I agree that it is entirely possible there were two Alexander Pentlands married to wives named Elizabeth but I would submit there may be more to discover from the Middlesex family which will tie them to Ireland and that the names they used suggests a link to the Richards in Ireland.

Re: Thomas Pentland

Roy_Pentland — 2013-05-24 23:44:02Z

Hi Scottish_Genealogist,
To quote you:
"It was likely Davs' brother Henry whose marriage another widow was registered in Banbridge in 1860."
Can you provide any further information about Henry P (circa 1832).

Re: Thomas Pentland

Roy_Pentland — 2013-05-24 23:08:25Z

Yes rtransit, I do believe you are right. It confirms my thought that the name "Alexander" does not fit in my line. Back to the keyboard!

Re: Thomas Pentland

rtransit — 2013-05-24 23:00:00Z

My point was is that there is no known evidence that the Elizabeth Westmore mentioned below, married to Alexander Pentland, while in England, are the same couple that lived in Drumgor, Armagh, with Elizabeth later living in Derrykeevan, where she died about 1848.

No doubt that are probably many Alexander and Elizabeth Pentland couples that existed, but what evidence exists to establish that this couple immigrated to England, got married,immigrated back to Armagh, Ireland and lived out their lives there.

If you have other information on Elizabeth Westmore and Alexander Pentland, either from their marriage records or from English census records, it would be helpful to provide it.

This is from a previous post you made, "Both Alexander and Elizabeth resided in Acton and died there too. There is no evidence yet of where they were born, but all the children were born in Acton."

The Alexander and Elizabeth Pentland, of my line, lived in Drumgor, their children were born in Drumgor, and later Elizabeth as a widow, came to live with her son George in Derrykeevan, Tartaraghan, where she died about 1848. She was then buried in Drumgor.

It does seem that you have included the wrong couple into this particular family line.

Re: Thomas Pentland

Roy_Pentland — 2013-05-24 21:08:35Z

Quote: “There is no evidence known that identifies the Elizabeth married to Alexander Pentland, as Elizabeth Westmore.”
The London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 Record, and the Pallot’s Marriage Index for England: 1780-1837 Record, both confirm that an Alexander Pentland married an Elizabeth Westmore in Acton St Mary, England.
I have used this couple previously, thinking they may have been the parents of Richard P (1801-1880) who married Mary Ann Davis (1804-1880). Whilst it was relatively easy to identify their children, “Richard” was not one of them.
It also concerned me that the name “Alexander” never appears again in my line. William, George, John and Richard appear frequently.
Perhaps Alexander P circa 1775 is the brother of John P circa 1775. I have placed all these possibilities into my tree to see if any further matches come up, but I am still left with much conjecture beyond Richard P and Mary Ann Davis and there is so little information available about these two.
Getting back to Alexander P and Elizabeth Westmore, it is interesting to note that one of their grandchildren, Elizabeth Ann Pentland (1826-1919), appears to have migrated to Australia and died in Creswick, a town just 116km north of where I now live! It also interests me that many of her siblings migrated to the USA, where my wife hailed from. Who knows what links I might find, especially with all the wonderful clues I gain from much more experienced people such as yourselves on these message boards.

Re: Thomas Pentland

rtransit — 2013-05-24 16:39:14Z

There is no evidence known that identifies the Elizabeth married to Alexander Pentland, as Elizabeth Westmore. Family history reports that their son George was born about 1806. As I said previously, we are then estimating Alexander's birth to be about 25-30 years prior, making it about 1875, or thereabouts.

As the earliest records of the children of George and Jane are in the mid 1820s, and list them as being born in Drumgor, we hypothesize that they were married shortly before that and that one of them was from Drumgor. We haven't found the marriage record for George and Jane, and found her maiden name on a death record of one of her children.

Re: Thomas Pentland

Cleekamin — 2013-05-24 14:58:42Z

I have a coupe of problems with this scenario:
1. Isn't th couple who Roxanne refrs to Alexander P and Elizabeth Westmore who married in London in 1792?
2. Jane Anderson died age 84 in 1877 suggesting George was born in the 1790's, however, the baptismal records suggest that he and his siblings were all baptised in Seagoe parish.

Re: Thomas Pentland

rtransit — 2013-05-24 13:40:45Z

I'd like to weigh in with another possible branch to this tree. I have an Alexander Pentland married to Elizabeth. Based on the birthdates of their children, we are guessing that Alexander himself was likely born about 1775.
Their children include the following:

Elizabeth, b. 1801
John b, 1804
George, b. 1806 (married Jane/Jennie Anderson in Drumgor, Seagoe Parish. They had two children in Drumgor before moving to Derrykeevan, Tartaraghan abt 1827)
John, b. 1807
Samuel, b. 1810
Elizabeth, b. 1816
Ann
Thomas

If Alexander and Elizabeth were from Seagoe Parish, and based on their birthdates, it may be that this Alexander would be the son of Alexander and Ann, mentioned below by Roy. This could make him the brother of John mentioned below as well, as their birth years would place them in the same generation.

Re: Thomas Pentland

Roy_Pentland — 2013-05-24 12:16:08Z

Hi Scottish Genealigist,
Based on what you have stated I can confirm that Davis Pentland married Elizabeth Kitchen in the parish of Tullylish in 1853. The marriage was short-lived since Elizabeth, by then widowed, married George Neil in the parish of Seagoe in 1861. I already have this information in my tree. I don’t have any information that Davis had a brother Henry. I do have information that he had a brother “George H” whose middle name may have been Henry, a sister Sarah and definitely a brother William.
A Rootschat thread suggested that Richard Pentland’s father may have been “John”. Considering the name “Richard John Pentland” occurs twice (my father 1928-living and Great Grandfather 1865-1949) I took a hunch that the name John had to appear in previous generations. It would then be “logical” for William to name one of his 12 children “John” and another “Richard John”. As it’s just a hunch, I am working on the following ancestry in Ireland (the dates appear to match quite well and the locations match:
Alexander Pentland (About 1750-1820) and Ann (surname unknown) (About 1750-1820)
John Pentland (About 1775-1840) and Deborah Ellis (About 1777-1843) – Marriage confirmed. Seagoe and Armagh.
Facts - Richard Pentland (About 1801-1880) and Mary Ann Davis (About 1804-1880) in Armagh
Facts - William Pentland (2 June 1829-28 March 1900) and Elizabeth Ewings (5 July 1835-22 December 1906). These two emigrated separately and married in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
I would be very pleased for anyone to confirm or contradict this possible line.

Re: Thomas Pentland

Scottish_Genealogist — 2013-05-24 08:15:44Z

"Williams parents were Richard Pentland (1801-1880) and Mary Ann Davis. I know they had another son Davis, possibly another son George H and possibly a daughter Sarah. Davis or George H married Elizabeth Kitchen."

The last statement is correct; Davis Pentland married Elizabeth Kitchen in the parish of Tullylish in 1853. The marriage was short-lived since Elizabeth, by then widowed, married George Neil in the parish of Seagoe in 1861. It was likely Davs' brother Henry whose marriage another widow was registered in Banbridge in 1860.

The Griffiths vluation was carried out in different counties in different years, Armagh being completed in June 1865.

There is a record of one John Pentland baptised in 1775 by parents Alexander and Ann in the parish of Seagoe. It would be interesting to hear the rationale which cennects John with Richard.

Re: Moses Pentland and Mary Ellen Stewart

CindyLowe000 — 2013-05-24 05:48:54Z

Hi Roxanna,

Mary Ellen Stewart, wife of Moses Pentland, daughter of Lindsey T. Stewart and Mattie Taylor. Lindsey T. Stewart, son of John F. Stewart and Mary Maddox. John F. Stewart, son of John G. Stewart and Elizabeth Fuqua (my husband's great great grandparents). John G. Stewart, son of Matthew Stewart and Elizabeth Gitthens.

I would like to issue you an invitation to the Descendants of Matthew Stewart myfamily.com site, where we have uploaded all of the documents proving this line of descent. In order to do that, I need your email address and it is not showing here. (I'm no longer subscribed to ancestry.com). My husband and I sponsor the site and it's free to all members.

Please email me at hiramlong@mchsi.com
Cindy Lowe

Re: Moses Pentland and Mary Ellen Stewart

rtransit — 2013-05-24 03:00:16Z

Yes, I am interested.

Best,
Roxanna

Re: Thomas Pentland

Roy_Pentland — 2013-05-23 23:52:34Z

In my last post here I stated:
"It is highly unlikely that these are ancestors in my tree and there is no evidence of any link to Ireland."
Of course I was completely wrong! My GG Grandfather was William Pentland who was born 2 June 1829 in Drumnakelly, Armagh, N. Ireland and migrated to Melbourne, Victoria, Australia in 1851. He married Eliza Ewings in 1854. She also came from Armagh. Williams parents were Richard Pentland (1801-1880) and Mary Ann Davis. I know they had another son Davis, possibly another son George H and possibly a daughter Sarah. Davis or George H married Elizabeth Kitchen.
It is possible that Richard Pentland's father was John Pentland (about 1175-1840). The available information on Richard Pentland and Mary Ann Davis is very slim (only a residence citation in the Griffith's Valuation 1848-1864). If anyone has more information on this line of the Pentland family I would appreciate hearing about it.

Re: Moses Pentland and Mary Ellen Stewart

CindyLowe000 — 2013-05-23 18:33:44Z

I'm researching the Stewart line of Mary Ellen Stewart who married Moses Pentland December 25, 1911 in Luce Co. Michigan. She was the daughter of Lindsey T. Stewart who died October 11, 1935 in Lexington, Kentucky and Martha "Mattie" Taylor. Lindsey was a first cousin of my husband's grandmother. I have a myfamily.com site for this Stewart family if you are interested.
Cindy Lowe hiramlong@mchsi.com

Searching grandfather's family - RUSSELL in Edinburgh

2013-05-18 14:54:51Z

I am searching for my gfandfather's family.His name was James Black Russell and he worked in a bank in Edinburgh
about the 1940s.
He had two sons (a)Richard Gerald Cruickshank Russell

(b)George Edgley Russell (he is my father!)
George Edgley was a tea planter in Assam,India and he came here around 1943,1944 or thereabout.
Richard Gerald's family is staying in the UK,but I do not have contact with them.Any information on the family will be appreciated.Thankyou.
Ronald Edgley Russell

Re: Searching grandfather's family

Debbie_russell1 — 2013-05-18 08:06:03Z

Ronnie - I have just found this message although I have been on this site before!
My father was Richard 'Rusty ' Russell - and your father George was our Uncle Dod ......
He used to come to England to visit every 2 years I think and would always bring a sackful of tea! We always asked him to stay but he would say he had to get back to India. We never knew he was married until your sister Mary wrote to Rusty and my mother Mary to tell us. Mary was 16yr then. Mary and I wrote to each other and I know she had a baby but then we lost touch and we moved. How amazing to find this post from you. My email is Debbie.russell1@googlemail.com. I live in Brighton as does my sister Jane. My brother lives in London and my other sister Karen is in Australia. Where are you living? And Mary? I really hope you receive this message - Jane and I often speak of you and have tried to find out how to make contact. This is lovely news. Hope to hear from you. Debbie Russell. Your cousin!! Did you hear from our dads cousins in Scotland? I have tried to find them too.

Re: Would I be able to find a 1924 and 1934 birth record online?

Memm12 — 2013-05-16 16:51:21Z

Patrick James Quinn born 1924
Elizabeth Mary Loughlin born 1934

They married 31/12/1952 in Edinburgh

Parents (no dates or any other info):
Stephen Quinn - occupation was merchant seaman
Elizabeth Quinn nee Crouse (or similar)

Arthur Loughlin - occupation farmer
Bridget Loughlin nee Haggerty or similar

There might be a Irish connection so I'm not 100% sure Scotland is the correct place to look. I am after birth, marriage (parents), death records for any of the above people.

Thanks

Emma

Re: Would I be able to find a 1924 and 1934 birth record online?

hastiegd — 2013-05-16 16:29:42Z

Hi

What info, names and dates do you have?

Graeme

Edinburgh

Re: Templedean Hall - Haddington (Children's Home)??

jacki_lewis25 — 2013-05-13 18:46:47Z

My mum also grew up in templedean in the thirties. We are trying to locate any photographs from that time.

Re: Templedean Hall - Haddington (Children's Home)??

jacki_lewis25 — 2013-05-12 13:37:00Z

Hi
I have just read your message and I am trying to locate any pictures or memorabilia from Templedean. My mum grew up there after her mum died when she was 7yrs old and my grandad was unable to cope. My mum was there from the age of 7yrs until she was 17yrs old. She was there with her identical twin and also two younger sisiters. Her name then was Margaret McGovern. Her memories are good. She says she was well dressed, well fed and had the best of educations. She is 83yrs old now and we are keen to here from anyone who was in the home around that time.

Re: mary mclean hoff

smithspace — 2013-05-11 22:30:23Z

Jessie Beaton McLean married Henry James Hounsom in 1892 in South Leith, Edinburgh. She was a nurse, living at 42 Junction Street, Leith. Her parents were Hugh McLean and Sarah Beaton. She must have been born abt. 1867 as she was 25 at the time of her marriage.

Re: Query

DonGillies61 — 2013-05-09 13:56:57Z

Alb,

Can you tell me what process you followed to find the NRS details ?

Thanks,

Don

Re: Query

johntoomey1945 — 2013-05-09 08:46:32Z

hi mari
many thanks
ray

Re: Query

mari200 — 2013-05-09 08:05:45Z

Hi,

if you do a google search for ' Charles Parker Laudanum' this ebook comes up within which his case is referred to.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RoIDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA629...

They all got 7 years transportation for the crime.

Mari

Re: Query

johntoomey1945 — 2013-05-08 19:17:08Z

hi Alb thank you for your quick reply i try looking on the convict shipl list at the time parker was transported but could not find any thing thaat would be most kind of you to send the transcript
i then send a copy to the relations in aystralia
ttfn
ray

Re: Query

alb99 — 2013-05-08 18:46:00Z

Sorry don't know. The newspaper article ended "...Judgement delayed." The staff at the National Records of Scotland could tell you. I assume it would be the same as they were all charged with the same crime and the article says "...the jury returned a verdict, finding the pannels [accused] guilty of administering laudanum, or some other narcotic drug as libelled, but the theft not proven."
I have transcribed the entry from the paper and can send it to you.

Alb

Re: Query

johntoomey1945 — 2013-05-08 12:24:24Z

alb Do you know what punishment the wilsons received

thanks again
ttfn
ray

Re: Query

johntoomey1945 — 2013-05-08 08:37:23Z

hi there Alb Morning
Many thanks for your reply ref parker sorry for not answering sooner but have been away

i will email this to relatives down under
and will certainly look up in the paper

ray

Re: CALDER Family - 1800's

kimcalder1986 — 2013-05-07 18:59:06Z

Hi John

I habe tried your email address several times, however it always fails.

Kimberley

Re: Query

alb99 — 2013-05-04 18:08:09Z

This might be it.

National Records of Scotland have the following record:
Reference : AD14/28/78
Title Precognition against David Wilson, William Wilson, Charles Parker for the crime of administering laudanum, and theft at Hawthornville, North Leith, Edinburgh
Dates 1828.
Charles's age was given as 22 and occupation blacksmith

There's an account in a London newspaper (the Standard) about the trial which took place on 22 Dec 1828. They were found guilty of administering the laudnum but the charge of theft was 'not proven'.
Alb

Query

johntoomey1945 — 2013-05-04 11:06:18Z

Hi
Charles Parker b????
What crime did Charles Commit to be sentenced to 7 years transportation in 1829 on board the "layton "
many thanks
ttfn
ray

Re: Lucy Arnold birth Edinburgh 1833

manesti — 2013-05-02 12:30:24Z

Hi Mari,

Thanks for looking. The only info I have is the 1841 & 1851 census plus marriage in 1867, named as Lucy Ann Arnold. Both censuses show birth Scotland, 1851 shows Edinburgh.

Manesti

Re: Lucy Arnold birth Edinburgh 1833

mari200 — 2013-05-02 08:34:19Z

Manesti,

quick check of scotland's people shows no Lucy Arnold's. Are you sure Lucy was her given name and not a second name that she was known by?

Records pre 1855 do rely on parish records being kept though an they weren't always so her birth may not be recorded.

Mari

Lucy Arnold birth Edinburgh 1833

manesti — 2013-05-01 15:58:48Z

Does anyone have information about Lucy Arnold, born 1833 in Edinburgh according to 1851 census. Parents Joseph (hatter) and (I assume) Susannah, Joseph's wife. He was born in Nottinghamshire but was living in Southwark, London, in 1841 and 1851.

Re: Sibbly Watt Hepburn b.1887 Reston

AsHepburn — 2013-04-30 19:51:26Z

Sons - plural! I'm off on another hunt - thanks
Alison

Re: Sibbly Watt Hepburn b.1887 Reston

Saugh30 — 2013-04-30 19:14:14Z

If you are willing to pay a little there is something of interest at

http://archive.scotsman.com/search/results?basicsearch=sybil...

Re: Sibbly Watt Hepburn b.1887 Reston

AsHepburn — 2013-04-29 13:23:37Z

Hi. I heard back from the crematorium and they confirmed what you told me but it is too long ago for them to have any other records and so I have hit a brick wall but thank you for for getting me this far.
I really appreciate your help
Alison

Re: Thomas Pentland

rtransit — 2013-04-29 10:43:29Z

I agree.

Re: Thomas Pentland

Roy_Pentland — 2013-04-29 06:09:23Z

Hi Roxanna and Cleekamin,
Her surname was Westmore and it is confirmed on the following:

London Metropolitan Archives, Saint Mary, Acton, Composite register: marriages May 1754 - Aug 1760, Apr 1783 - May 1794, banns Apr 1783 - May 1794, DRO/052, Item 016.

The marriage is also confirmed in the Pallot's Marriage Index for England: 1780 - 1837.

Both Alexander and Elizabeth resided in Acton and died there too. There is no evidence yet of where they were born, but all the children were born in Acton.

It is highly unlikely that these are ancestors in my tree and there is no evidence of any link to Ireland. This means they are not George Pentland's parents either. There are many family trees showing this couple connected to Irish Pentlands families and I believe this is incorrect.

I shall keep researching!

Re: Thomas Pentland

rtransit — 2013-04-28 13:11:55Z

Were you able to find a marriage record for Alexander Pentland and Elizabeth, that indicates her maiden name?

Thanks,
Roxanna

Re: Thomas Pentland

rtransit — 2013-04-28 13:07:27Z

Hi Roy,

Good to hear from you.

Based on the birthyear - Richard could be the brother of George and Jane. George was born about 1806 in Ireland, and his children were born in the 1820s or after.

Best,
Roxanna

Re: Thomas Pentland

Cleekamin — 2013-04-28 12:32:07Z

George Pentland who maried Jane Anderson was the son of Alexander Pentland and Elizabeth Westmore. I would guess Richard may be the brother of George Pentland but doubt he was a son.

Re: Pentland Davis Ewings McIllroy Cobledick

Roy_Pentland — 2013-04-28 02:04:34Z

Hi Audrey,
The Gippsland Pentland family you speak of is my family too. I would be keen to share more information with everyone researching this family and the Pentland family in Launceston who also emigrated and first settled in Walhalla.

Re: Thomas Pentland

Roy_Pentland — 2013-04-28 01:56:26Z

Hi Roxanna,
Is there any chance that George and Jane Pentland also had a son Richard? Richard Pentland lived from 1795 to 1880 in Armagh, Ireland. At one time he lived in the village of Annagh in the parish of Dumcree.
Regards
Roy Pentland