Thanks lulupat, your swiftness at gathering information is really impressive. I have a couple of birth certificates which I ordered some time ago but didn't know how to confirm either one but you may have opened a door for me. The 2 I have for John Thomas Owen has one being born on 9 September 1874 to John and Frances (formerly Miller), but the other one is to Anne Owen on 26 June 1873. No father is listed and he was born in the Union Workhouse in Lincoln. You mention his baptism record. Where did you find this information and how can I get a copy of it? Do I need to contact the actual church or parish office? Your theory could about being born before Anne married Charles Wass seems reasonable and so I may just order that and the one for Ellen Bark to Thomas Wass. The great mystery is his death record. There seemed to be much mystery surrounding it and rumors too about John being killed by a family member. My grandfather Frank did speak about working on a large english estate which is most likely the one you mentioned. Do you think his death may have been recorded under the name John Wass? Is that likely since he (if the theory is correct) then went by John Owen? A death certificate would be very helpful. Again, many thanks for the help. I'll see what I can dig up. Glenna